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 Old 01-12-2011, 07:51 PM   #1
 
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Sorry for turning this into my personal "I don't know what the fuck I'm doing" thread... but quick question for you guys.

You can see in logs 13 and 14, the row right before I let off the throttle, the car immediately goes lean. I let off the throttle at different RPMs in the logs, so it's not that. I was thinking it has something to do with a transition back into CL but the lean happens before I let off the throttle according to the log.

Log 12, the only difference was a change OL/WOT command where I changed my command to 11.8:1 to RL... so something changed... not sure what.

Any thoughts would be appreciated.
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 Old 01-13-2011, 12:35 PM   #2
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Originally Posted by amoosenamedhank View Post
Sorry for turning this into my personal "I don't know what the fuck I'm doing" thread... but quick question for you guys.

You can see in logs 13 and 14, the row right before I let off the throttle, the car immediately goes lean. I let off the throttle at different RPMs in the logs, so it's not that. I was thinking it has something to do with a transition back into CL but the lean happens before I let off the throttle according to the log.

Log 12, the only difference was a change OL/WOT command where I changed my command to 11.8:1 to RL... so something changed... not sure what.

Any thoughts would be appreciated.
so are you saying that before you made your OL/WOT AF change this wasn't logged?

to me it just looks like resolution in the logging. In relaity the rows that are logged don't meet up in realtime. if you do enough logging you can see these patterns occur. you might log Acel Pos so you can see exactly when you let off.

I don't know if it is the processing within the ECU that gives us the low resolution or the AP processing itself but either way it would be nice to have higher res.
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 Old 01-13-2011, 01:21 PM   #3
 
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Originally Posted by Dano2010 View Post
so are you saying that before you made your OL/WOT AF change this wasn't logged?

to me it just looks like resolution in the logging. In relaity the rows that are logged don't meet up in realtime. if you do enough logging you can see these patterns occur. you might log Acel Pos so you can see exactly when you let off.

I don't know if it is the processing within the ECU that gives us the low resolution or the AP processing itself but either way it would be nice to have higher res.
This had crossed my mind... that the refresh rate between the values might not always line up perfectly. Good point about the acceleration pedal... I suppose this could be explained in part by the delay between the time I lift my foot and the time the throttle plate actually closes.

But to answer your first question, no this was not logged this way until I leaned out my OL/WOT to 11.8 to RL, coincidence?
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 Old 01-13-2011, 01:50 PM   #4
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Originally Posted by amoosenamedhank View Post
coincidence?
Yes.

If you had a DashDaq which logs very fast you would see clearly that nothing lines up exactly, on the AP stuff can be 1 line off, on the DD stuff can be 10 lines off.
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 Old 01-13-2011, 01:57 PM   #5
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yes purely coincidence
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 Old 01-13-2011, 08:39 AM   #6
 
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i am a dumb ass at tuning.. but how much better or power if felt by boost tuning compared to load tuning ?? Christian did my etune and i guess he did load tuning i guess..
would getting boost tuned be better ?
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 Old 01-13-2011, 09:23 AM   #7
 
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I don't think there is necessarily more power to be had between them. If your car is correctly tune using either method, I wouldn't expect much difference. I think it more comes down to your preference in how you would like to obtain your results.

For me, it's easier to grasp the concept of targeting a psi number opposed to trying to obtain a numeric value based of some formula in the ECU. So that's why I choose to go after boost based targeting. I'm sure your load based tune from Xtian is just fine.
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 Old 01-13-2011, 10:34 AM   #8
 
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I understand about 80% of this stuff, the one question I have is...if you plan on tuning by boost, are you supposed to zero out the gear-based load tables?
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 Old 01-13-2011, 11:14 AM   #9
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Nope. The boost toggle defeats the load tbls

A boost tune appears to yield a smoother throttle response than a load tune. Making no other changes, ie APP, DBW etc a boost based tune allows for smoother more controlled application of power for me.

With load tuning power is controlled by RPM only and not directly by throttle input. One could argue this point but I am simplifying it for this discussion. You can hold the throttle in one position and get a tremendous surge of power as RPMs rise. This translates to a hard to control torque curve at times and will blast the front tires off on a FWD car. Also, since it is load based and the ECU is responsible for calculating load, it can be unpredictable and you get very different power applied at times.

Boost tuning on the other hand, is controlled by TPS and RPM so you can more easily control when the power gets laid down by throttle position. Some have described this as a "softer pedal feel", meaning it takes more pedal to make the same power. to me you get more pedal "resolution" this way. We all know how you get 100% power at just over 50% pedal position right? well not with boost tuning along with a little APP tweaking.

For me, I prefer this side effect of boost tuning and now the either on or off feeling of throttle is gone.

I have further refined this effect by tuning my APP per gear to limit power in the lower gears without neutering power like in the TRL xgear tables.

Of course you could spend hours perfecting a load based tune [ or just be smarter than me which wouldn't take much] and perhaps get the same results but for me, boost tuning is a faster way to get those same results.
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 Old 01-13-2011, 11:26 AM   #10
 
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also with boost tuning you remove variables like.. which load table A-E is going to be used at any given moment

the only concern is ol/cl transitions
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 Old 01-13-2011, 12:23 PM   #11
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post 89 updated with more "impressions" of boost vs load tuning.
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 Old 01-14-2011, 10:55 AM   #12
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Originally Posted by bmorrisj View Post
also with boost tuning you remove variables like.. which load table A-E is going to be used at any given moment

the only concern is ol/cl transitions
you can remove that variable by setting your CL Max Throttle tbls to 100 and set your CL Max Load D tbl to like 1.1 and you will always transition to OL at 1.1 load. oh for an MS6 I think the table to change is E. I don't think it hurts anything to change all of them to the same. Just set them to 1.1 from 500 to 4.5K. You can leave the lower values there to RL as you will always be above those load points. FYI, you can see that in OEM trim, the ECU tries to stay in CL until 4.5K.

Once you make that change ensure that your fuel tables are changed to match. Meaning start at the 1.1 row in the 3D fuel tables and enter your desired AFR. Make them all match and your are good to go and will have very stable fueling.
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 Old 01-14-2011, 12:16 PM   #13
 
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Originally Posted by Dano2010 View Post
you can remove that variable by setting your CL Max Throttle tbls to 100 and set your CL Max Load D tbl to like 1.1 and you will always transition to OL at 1.1 load. oh for an MS6 I think the table to change is E. I don't think it hurts anything to change all of them to the same. Just set them to 1.1 from 500 to 4.5K. You can leave the lower values there to RL as you will always be above those load points. FYI, you can see that in OEM trim, the ECU tries to stay in CL until 4.5K.

Once you make that change ensure that your fuel tables are changed to match. Meaning start at the 1.1 row in the 3D fuel tables and enter your desired AFR. Make them all match and your are good to go and will have very stable fueling.
I changed my CL Max load/CL max throttle tables the same time I enabled 'boost based tuning'. Because of this, I unfortunately didn't get the chance to feel what each brought to the table independent of each other.... but man, between the two of them, this thing is as smooth as butter.

It has made me completely fall back in love with driving the car.
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 Old 01-14-2011, 01:27 PM   #14
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hahah

well I made my CL changes way back when....almost a year ago while working around the load cap...so I can tell you that both offer great control over what the motor does but the pressure based boost tuning is what really makes the control over power smoother.

keep the comments/ideas coming.
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 Old 01-15-2011, 12:30 PM   #15
 
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From reading earlier posts, it looks like you state the the Boost Dynamics table makes modifications to the WGDC if boost is off. Are you sure BD doesn't actually modify boost targetting? If you look at the subtitles, it says "Boost Compensation" as opposed to something like the Boost Comp IAT in which the subtitle says "WGDC Compensation".
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Originally Posted by Dano2010 View Post
Once you make that change ensure that your fuel tables are changed to match. Meaning start at the 1.1 row in the 3D fuel tables and enter your desired AFR. Make them all match and your are good to go and will have very stable fueling.
Dano would you mind posting your fuel tables I'm curious to see how yours looks compared to mine

Are you talking about changing the CL Commanded EQ or OL/Part Throttle Commanded EQ
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 Old 01-16-2011, 10:36 AM   #17
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my entire map is in post #1 and the only map changes have been with regard to boost tuning so the fuel tables in the map are what I am running now.

now I am exiting CL at 1.25 load so a bit higher than in my 1.1 example...just don't want to confuse anyone. I started out at 1.1 but moved it up to 1.25 which removed some of the touchy throttle response. I think most guys that are forcing CL exit are doing it at 1.1. It probably doesn't really matter as long is you are in that general area. when going WOT you fly through those load points very fast anyway.
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trying out this boost tuning deal (thanks to socks) and, although i havent pushed the car hard enough yet (learning fuel trims), i can DEFINITELY see the difference in pedal feel. not only smoother, but the power is actually delivered gradually, not in an on/off manner.
Ill post more impressions later.
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 Old 01-13-2011, 03:40 PM   #19
 
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I love the boost based tuning! its way easier, and the car just feels way smoother all around. Not to mention i can actually hold boost now
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The overall driving experience has really improved for me since switching. As others have mentioned everything is a lot smoother and a lot more linear. And the ability to actually be able to control boost n00b style, is amazing.

I'm giving the previous owner (JohnnyT) shit because the car feels 10x better than he's ever had it.
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I just made a 17psi map real quick and boost tuning is definitely way easier and more predictable.
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 Old 01-16-2011, 11:04 AM   #22
 
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i cant read your ATR map... can you post up your 3d fuel tables... i want to make sure i understand what you're saying about making them match
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 Old 01-16-2011, 11:18 AM   #23
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Well this guide is for MS3s we don't like MS6 guys...move along, nothing to see here...LOL


Fuel tables I have changed the "unused" and throttle closed are OTS

after making the changes at the load point you choose, you will want to IP, interpolate from your new AFR value up about 6 rowes to smooth the transition out.

And I think it goes witout saying but I'll say it anyway, when you make fueling changes please log log log and make sure things are responding correctly.











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 Old 01-16-2011, 04:01 PM   #24
 
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Originally Posted by Dano2010 View Post
Well this guide is for MS3s we don't like MS6 guys...move along, nothing to see here...LOL


Fuel tables I have changed the "unused" and throttle closed are OTS

after making the changes at the load point you choose, you will want to IP, interpolate from your new AFR value up about 6 rowes to smooth the transition out.

And I think it goes witout saying but I'll say it anyway, when you make fueling changes please log log log and make sure things are responding correctly.

Confirm you're running a meth system? My fuel tables mirror yours except I'm targeting 11.6 at WOT without meth. It keeps me a little more warm and fuzzy.
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 Old 01-16-2011, 04:08 PM   #25
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yes I typically spray 100% meth on a 7 nozzle but my local shop is out for the season so I am running 5050 water/heet for now. 7 nozzle isn't big enough to change my AFR so I need to step up to a 10 and tweak my trigger points to end up with gph flow of something like an 8 or 9 nozzle size.

FF you could go up to 11.8 and just fatten up the 5.5k and up range where the K04 starts to heat up. may give you a bit more kick IDK probably have to have it on a dyno to see any difference LOL.
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 Old 01-16-2011, 12:32 PM   #26
 
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ahh i see.. guess i caught the gist of it, thats what i laid out.
we dont have a fuel OL commanded base table
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 Old 01-16-2011, 12:46 PM   #27
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do you know which table on a 6 is for CL Max Load? IIRC it is E but I don't know for sure.
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 Old 01-16-2011, 02:26 PM   #28
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I got my Grimspeed installed in intercept mode.

I capped off the turbo boost source line with the pill in it. I also capped off the top (smaller) wastegate actuator port.

Configuration:

Port 3 to boost source (I tapped into my silicone hose coupler on the discharge of my turbo).

Port 2 to wastegate actuator (using lower, larger port).

Port 1 is vent to atmosphere (will probably eventually connect to the turbo inlet pipe).


The way it works in this configuration is that with 0% WGDC (solenoid not energized), the path is always open from boost source to wastegate actuator (will run spring pressure).

As WGDC is increased it restricts the boost source to the wastegate actuator (increases boost).



This is flipped from the recommended setup for bleed, which is:

Port 1 = Top port on wastegate actuator
Port 2 = Turbo Inlet Pipe

In this configuration 0% WGDC means no flow (bleed), which will result in just running spring pressure.

Increased WGDC will increase the amount of pressure bled from the wastegate actuator, which will increase boost.

Hope this clarifies things...
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 Old 01-16-2011, 02:30 PM   #29
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That's how my Grimm EBC is routed. intetested to see how you setup your DC tables and are you going to use the OTS BD table? it seemed way to reactive for EBC 3 port.
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 Old 01-16-2011, 03:06 PM   #30
 
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we have CL max load a-d .. C i the prime table we believe

@cld12pk2go
it doesnt matter what port on the wga you use since its straight through... just capping the bottom is harder to reach if the cap splits and starts bleeding boost away from the wastegate
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 Old 01-16-2011, 03:52 PM   #31
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I started with my WGDC table at 10 from 2000-7000 RPMs and aiming for 17 PSI in boost targeting mode.

I know that I experience boost creep with my stock K04 when it is cold out. Typically, I creep to ~18-19 PSI when it is 20°F around 4000 RPMs when just running spring pressure. As the compressor efficiency falls off up top my pressure falls to ~15 PSI (again on spring pressure).

My current BD table is as follows:

0.08 0.05 0.03 0.02 0.00 0.00 -0.01 -0.06 -0.12 -0.30 -0.70

Originally Posted by bmorrisj View Post
@cld12pk2go
it doesnt matter what port on the wga you use since its straight through... just capping the bottom is harder to reach if the cap splits and starts bleeding boost away from the wastegate
Correct. I used the bottom b/c I was running 1/4'' hose.
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 Old 01-16-2011, 03:56 PM   #32
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I have now worked my way back up to Christain's BD table from the neutered version I was running.

Code:
0.04	0.02	0.01	0.01	0.00	0.00	-0.00	-0.01	-0.02	-0.04	-0.09
I see you are allowing the BD table quite a bit of authority to reduce WGDC but keeping things tight in the under run area. I did find that if I allowed BD any compensation for 1PSI over or under the EBC was way too reactive so I'll be interested to see how yours turns out with the -0.01 in your 1psi over run cell.

with not allowing any compensation in the 1PSI area I have found that having your WGDC table spot on actually is a bad thing as BD will let you "Hang" out in a 1PSI error state until the next RPM range. Does that seem possible to you 12pk?
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 Old 01-16-2011, 09:56 PM   #33
 
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dano, thanks very much for all the great info in this thread. I've been quietly following along and am now successfully running an 18psi tune using boost based tuning.

My AFRs are the most stable they've ever been...11.76 all day long, solid as a rock. You kick ass man!!
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 Old 01-16-2011, 10:24 PM   #34
 
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Originally Posted by Cataphract_40 View Post
dano, thanks very much for all the great info in this thread. I've been quietly following along and am now successfully running an 18psi tune using boost based tuning.

My AFRs are the most stable they've ever been...11.76 all day long, solid as a rock. You kick ass man!!
Can you post up your map so I can compare to mine
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 Old 01-16-2011, 10:42 PM   #35
 
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Sure here you go. It's still a work in progress of course. Note that I have tweaked this map for my deleted EGR system. It's cold here right now so that's probably why I'm seeing just shy of 18psi
Attached Files
File Type: ptm Stage1+SF 93 v1.071 FMIC BT MAF EGR.ptm (9.8 KB, 3 views)
File Type: csv datalog45.csv (3.3 KB, 2 views)
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 Old 01-17-2011, 06:38 AM   #36
 
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I finally got my map fully sorted out as a baseline, now just need to add BD back into the equation. Right now my car spikes to 17psi at 3000RPM and holds 16.5-17psi to 5500RPM on WGDC alone. I can't go much higher with the 10-20* weather and my stock pump, but I'm thinking the Boost Comp IAT will push that up to about 17-17.5psi in the summer automatically anyways.

But so far, this is easily the most stable and easiest to modify map I've created yet; the car pulls like a freight train in 4th now, and doesn't hesitate constantly like it did on my load-based maps.

Thanks for the help Dano!
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 Old 01-17-2011, 08:19 AM   #37
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Glad to help where I can guys. This is certainly a work in progress for me as well. One thing about the IAT comp table Christian modified is that its only set to reduce dc below 32* and above 140* so keep that in mind.

I actually negated my table as well [1.00 in the 32.00 cell] until I get the WGDC table finialized to remove that variable.
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 Old 01-17-2011, 10:35 AM   #38
 
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This is a great guide to get a solid understanding on how to tune with boost.......

I just started making my own winter map for 16.5psi & Ill also make a summer map (or slight changes to the winter map) targeting 18psi

Dano for gearhead?
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 Old 01-17-2011, 01:23 PM   #39
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I love the idea of limiting power in 1st/2nd gear via APP trans tables.

That should work brilliantly.

Just remember that Cobb did some work where beyond (~50% IIRC) very little additional power was obtained when playing with the throttle blade, so you might need to restrict further.
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 Old 01-17-2011, 01:40 PM   #40
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yes actually my 3rd gear is a bit too limited.....this weekend it got up into the 50s and I couldn't break 3rd gear lose at WOT so it is very temp dependent. My APP setup for 3rd was done at ~40 and I could just barely get it to spin...that's the sweet spot.

The other good thing about using APP is that it will work for MBC as well. Albeit the curve might have to be a bit different but it should still work.

on-the-fly/partial flash tuning would shine here to flash some pre-defined APP tweaks for temp changes.
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