Dano's Boost Tuning 101 + Cool Stuff

[Dano]

actually, no. it looks like the B tables may be for DCS active or something like that as they are already reducing boost compensation. The fact that the A table did infact, limit power in 1st gear leads me to believe the A tables are the ones to change.

It just looks like the sharing of the 1-2nd gear table doesn't work for me.

I will set both A & B tables up when I test 3rd gear comp

Did you try them and get power limiting in 2nd gear?

[XLT_66]

For anyone boost tuning:

Have y'all adjusted your DBW tables up from the max value of 80?

In my first revision of boost tuning where all I'd done is calibrate the MAF, I was not reaching targeted boost at all. I have since updated my map to for targeted boost to hit at 68.75 since my TPS was only reaching about 73-74, thus from what I understand, making all boost targets from 75-100 unreachable. Is this true?

In the same revision, I went and updated my DBW tables and put 95 in place for all the 80's in the A and C table.

I reflashed so my LTFT's are all out of whack right now, going to OL almost instantly at WOT. However, I now reach the boost I want to reach and hold it throughout the pull.

In the attached logs, the first 3 are 3rd gears and the last one is a 4th gear run.

My question is. Should I be trying to get the WGD% to come down from there by adjusting the BD table or does this all look pretty good.

What should I do next?

FYI: I logged Pedal Position instead of Throttle Positoin on accident so I dont know if the DBW changes actually did anything...

[amoosenamedhank]

No meth? I would work on your CL/OL transition because you're going into OL awfully late in your pull. Mine is set to transition at 1.0 load . This will help your A/F ratio get into a save zone a lot faster.

I would also work on tuning your fuel curves. You are leaving power on the table going that rich by the end of the run. I would set your target A/F ratio to some where around 11.8:1 and try to hold that throughout the run.

For you boost, what are you BT targets? I'm assuming 18.5psi? I think you could work your WGDC up a little from 4,000-5,800 to hold the boost a little longer. It looks like you have plenty of DC left to play with... and it obviously won't take much to beef that mid-top end up a little.

[XLT_66]

Originally Posted by amoosenamedhank No meth? I would work on your CL/OL transition because you're going into OL awfully late in your pull. Mine is set to transition at 1.0 load . This will help your A/F ratio get into a save zone a lot faster. I would also work on tuning your fuel curves. You are leaving power on the table going that rich by the end of the run. I would set your target A/F ratio to some where around 11.8:1 and try to hold that throughout the run. For you boost, what are you BT targets? I'm assuming 18.5psi? I think you could work your WGDC up a little from 4,000-5,800 to hold the boost a little longer. It looks like you have plenty of DC left to play with... and it obviously won't take much to beef that mid-top end up a little.

What are you looking at that tells you i'm going into open loop? I thought seeing LTFTs go to 0.16 is the sign of open loop? My LTFT's are not accurate right now because I just reflashed and haven't given them time to really settle out.

As for boost, I'm targeting 18.0 PSI and taper it down to 16.5 PSI as I climb RPMs. I do this because that is the way the OTS map had it lined out.

Can you tell me specifically which tables I should be looking at to adjust the things you mention here? I'm new to this but learning quickly.

[amoosenamedhank]

Originally Posted by XLT_66 What are you looking at that tells you i'm going into open loop? I thought seeing LTFTs go to 0.16 is the sign of open loop? My LTFT's are not accurate right now because I just reflashed and haven't given them time to really settle out. As for boost, I'm targeting 18.0 PSI and taper it down to 16.5 PSI as I climb RPMs. I do this because that is the way the OTS map had it lined out. Can you tell me specifically which tables I should be looking at to adjust the things you mention here? I'm new to this but learning quickly.

Take a look at the targets in your O/L WOT table and your OL commanded table (us MS6 guys don't get that table). I also have personally made a lot of changes to my C/L tables just to not give the ECU anything to have to really think about when the moment comes.

I would reference post #109 from this thread... Dano lays out his fueling setup pretty well. Just remember his CL/OL transition is at 1.25 load and not 1.00.

Here is the thread explaining the CL/OL transition. THREAD

I think it's smart to start slowing the stock turbo down around 5,800-6,000rpms... but I would run her hard until then personally.

[DSIT995]

I have the CL table D set to the following. IMHO 1.0 is a lil low, but changing the values to 1.15 seem to work very well for me
Changing this table will get u to OL faster and ur AFR's will drop faster to ur target

edit: ALL my fueling tables above 1.15 load match

[Dano]

Originally Posted by XLT_66 For anyone boost tuning: Have y'all adjusted your DBW tables up from the max value of 80? In my first revision of boost tuning where all I'd done is calibrate the MAF, I was not reaching targeted boost at all. I have since updated my map to for targeted boost to hit at 68.75 since my TPS was only reaching about 73-74, thus from what I understand, making all boost targets from 75-100 unreachable. Is this true? In the same revision, I went and updated my DBW tables and put 95 in place for all the 80's in the A and C table. I reflashed so my LTFT's are all out of whack right now, going to OL almost instantly at WOT. However, I now reach the boost I want to reach and hold it throughout the pull. In the attached logs, the first 3 are 3rd gears and the last one is a 4th gear run. My question is. Should I be trying to get the WGD% to come down from there by adjusting the BD table or does this all look pretty good. What should I do next? FYI: I logged Pedal Position instead of Throttle Positoin on accident so I dont know if the DBW changes actually did anything...

I think I should make a thread that covers all my calibrations....LOL

anyway here is what you need to get CL/OL in line and get fueling right where you want it.

First lets tell the ECU when to exit CL AND to ignore throttle pos. This gets rid of lean conditions with high boost, lean conditions after shift, and lean conditions after an FFS shift.

CL Max Load D = 1.1 [ I am currenlty using 1.25 but it doesn't matter much] oh and MS6 guys use a different table than D I believe, but IDK which one it is. Maybe E.

you will want to input 1.1 up till and including the 4500RPM cell then it doesn't mater.

CL Max Throttle A-D = 100 [ this tells the ecu to ignore throttle pos]

This controls which fueling method to target and at the above load point you will enter OL.

I also use SLSs exit delays. These are the delays that come into play AFTER the above prams have been met. 15-40-40 IIRC

now that you know when you will enter OL you need to adjust all of your fuel tables to match. you will see that in the 3D tables the load points around 1.1 you will be commanding something like 12.5AFR...that needs to be changed to your target of say 11.8 starting from the 1.1 row down. Then IP [interpolate] from 1.1 up about 5 rowes to smooth out the transition.


I think that should cover it and if your MAF is spot on then you will see that you hit your AF targets almost immediately.

oh and you do want to change the 80 values in the DBW A & C tables to 100.

[XLT_66]

Originally Posted by Dano2010 I think I should make a thread that covers all my calibrations....LOL anyway here is what you need to get CL/OL in line and get fueling right where you want it. First lets tell the ECU when to exit CL AND to ignore throttle pos. This gets rid of lean conditions with high boost, lean conditions after shift, and lean conditions after an FFS shift. CL Max Load D = 1.1 [ I am currenlty using 1.25 but it doesn't matter much] oh and MS6 guys use a different table than D I believe, but IDK which one it is. Maybe E. you will want to input 1.1 up till and including the 4500RPM cell then it doesn't mater. CL Max Throttle A-D = 100 [ this tells the ecu to ignore throttle pos] This controls which fueling method to target and at the above load point you will enter OL. I also use SLSs exit delays. These are the delays that come into play AFTER the above prams have been met. 15-40-40 IIRC now that you know when you will enter OL you need to adjust all of your fuel tables to match. you will see that in the 3D tables the load points around 1.1 you will be commanding something like 12.5AFR...that needs to be changed to your target of say 11.8 starting from the 1.1 row down. Then IP [interpolate] from 1.1 up about 5 rowes to smooth out the transition. I think that should cover it and if your MAF is spot on then you will see that you hit your AF targets almost immediately. oh and you do want to change the 80 values in the DBW A & C tables to 100.

Now that is the kind of explanations I'm looking for. Look for "this" in "that" table. Change "this" if it looks like "that".

Thanks a bunch guys.

Last question for now: You mentioned I should adjust CL Max Throttle A-D...Am I leaving Table E alone?

[Dano]

oops...yes get all throttle tables as I don't know which it uses...depens on DSC..steering angle and lots of other BS.

BTW you will be driving a different car when you get all this setup

[m4tic]

all this and i still cant get rid of the stutter when i WOT 2-3 shift >:0

[amoosenamedhank]

So here is one point I've always wondered about. In the link that provided earlier (THREAD) the values entered in the Closed Loop - Max load tables have never made much sense to me.

MS3 (values claimed to be provided by Christian)
Code:
500 1000 1500 2000 2500 3000 3500 4000 4500 5000 5500 6000 6500 7000
2.00 2.00 2.00 1.20 1.55 1.57 1.57 1.40 1.40 0.40 0.33 0.00 0.00 0.00

MS6 (values provided by forum member)
Closed Loop - Max Load C
Code:
500 1000 1500 2000 2500 3000 3500 4000 4500 5000 5500 6000 6500 7000
2.00 2.00 2.00 1.20 1.55 1.57 1.57 1.40 1.30 0.40 0.33 0.00 0.00 0.00

(sorry the values didn't exactly line up)

This basically just looks like a reduction from the stock values. Are you guys employing the progressive ramp up like this or are you using a set value across the board?

[Dano]

same value, 1.25 across to and including 4500 RPMS where I left the OTS values from there on as it doesn't matter. You WILL be in OL by then because your load will always be over .40 by then. Cobb and Mazda want to keep you in CL for as long as possible to guarantee fuel trims active.

LTFT can be active even in OL but that's another thread...LOL

[amoosenamedhank]

I think im going to up mine to 1.15-1.25 because after driving around for while at 1.0... I feel like it's too low. I feel like I'm constantly popping back and forth during normal driving conditions. Very annoying

[Dano]

Exactly. That's why I went from 1.1 to 1.25.

I've even thought about going higher. It's just a matter of having enough time LOL


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[Frequentflyer]

Originally Posted by XLT_66 Hey, I'm in the process of boost tuning with AP right now and saw your posts in Dano's Boost Tuning 101. So, after doing some logs, I'm seeing a spike to the 17.5-18.0 PSI range and then immediately fall off to 15 PSI range for the rest of the pull even though I'm targeting 17 PSI and then taper to 16.5 as I climb RPM. Could this be because my TPS sensor is only showing values no higher than 73.5 throughout the WOT pull? In the OTS Boost Target's map, the peak values are only down at the bottom, where TPS is 75-100%. If I understand what you were saying correctly, you are saying that since my TPS only goes to 73.5, it never will reach all of those boost targets from 75-100, right? So if I go and drag up my max boost targets from each RPM range up to the 68.75 line, then I should reach those targets, right? Let me know if I'm following you correctly. Thanks. Also, is there a way to scale my TPS so that it does reach 100% when at WOT? I'd rather have more room on the table to increase boost values. Making 1/4 of the table useless is...well...useless....

XLT, I'm replying to your PM in this thread.

Since you're stage 1 with no intercooler upgrade, I would stay around 17psi for a target between 4000-6000 RPM. I've tuned my WGDC's so that I barely spike 1psi over target so I wouldn't accept any spikes higher than that. It's cold right now, but come summer time, you may have issues with KR up at 18psi.

Of course I don't have your map to look at and compare your logs to see if the ECU is actually doing what you want it to do, but your AFR's look decent. You may be able to keep them leaned out just a bit more around 11.8 until 6000 RPM.

You will want to have your boost targets copied up to the 68.75 line because our throttle position (which you didn't log), only gets to about 75-76%. We're not sure if this was designed to leave room for people at high elevations who may need more throttle or what, but it has been determined the "full throttle" mod really opens the throttle for most around 75%. Sometimes it'll only open around 70-73% and you won't be hitting targets that are set at 75%.

As a side note, I've got my CL/OL transition set to 1.25. Seems to work OK. I may experiment with going a little higher, but 1.25 seems to work.

[XLT_66]

I'm putting some miles on the new map to let the LTFTs settle down before I log again. I can say that the car is a freakin' madman compared to what it was before and what I thought was a quick car. Thanks so much for all of your help. I think all of these combined posts will make it a lot easier for the next person to implement the same changes I've been learning about and doing.

Quick question for you guys.

I've adjusted the following tables:

Fuel OL/WOT Commanded EQ No Knock A & B - Targeting 11.8 from 3500+

Fuel OL/Part Throttle Commanded EQ (No Knocking) - Targeting 11.8 from 1.13+; interpolated vertically about 5 sections up in each row.

Closed Loop - Max Load D - Put 1.15 in for 500-4500; OTS after that.

Changed all the Closed Loop- Max Throttle tables to 100.0 values for all sections.

Question:

Should I update the Fuel OL Commanded EQ (base) map to target 11.8 from my CL/OL transition point on up as well?

Do I modify any of the "knocking" tables like Fuel OL/WOT Commanded EQ (Knocking) and Fuel OL/Part Throttle Commanded EQ (Knocking) tables?

[amoosenamedhank]

I agree with you, this started as a boost tuning thread and really has turned into the full package deal. Not to play Dano's skin flute too much here, but he's really been a lucrative part of this all.

For some reason the MS6 doesn't have the OL Commanded EQ table (WHY THE HELL NOT COBB??!!?!) but I would assume that you would want to build that table with your CL/OL transition points as well.

If you're on a stock turbo, you might also want to OL/WOT command 11.8:1 A/F ratio a little sooner (say around 2,500rpms) as well. I know we all know not to boost the car below 3,000rpms but I usually start my logs before that point so I like the extra coverage.

I didn't really change much on my knock tables. I just sorta audited the tables to ensure I liked their layout... but basically you just want moar fuel!

I also changed my Close Loop - Max load from 1.1 to 1.25 and so far I'm loving it. I've been watching my fuel ratio and I'm not bouncing back and forth at all during my 'normal driving'. Plus the car feels a lot smoother because you could definitely feel the car transitioning back and forth. I have yet to do a log with the new setup to ensure it dips down fast enough, but I'm sure it will.

Oh and I just wanted to make sure I wasn't the only one who gets stupid excited to make these changes and then go running outside to reflash your tune and drive around... I have been a car enthusiast for awhile and I've had higher hp cars... but this is the most fun I've had in awhile.

[Dano]

Yes you want the OL base table to mimic the others. If you have a 6 sorry

Edit: If you have an MS3 you can look at my map posted earlier and see my KR table changes but basically I reduced the OL/KR to only allow 11.2 and Max Enrich to 10.5 IIRC [ again I don't think MS6s have Max Enrich] and the others are close to if not OTS. I honestly don't remember their exact values LOL

I think I'll seriously condense the info in this thread and add all my other calibrations and create another thread. It would cover my entire tuning process, leaving out the mistakes as not to confuse anyone.

Oh wait, there were no mistakes

Hahaha


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[Dano]

Originally Posted by XLT_66 I'm putting some miles on the new map to let the LTFTs settle down before I log again.

BTW if your MAF is spot on there is no reason to wait for the ECU to learn LTFTs before logging WOT runs. In fact, even if its off the ECU rarely trims in OL.

It will trim eventually if your MAF is way off but as you can imagine, it can only learn those OL trims [ read voltage ranges] if you spend a lot of time in those vt ranges to fill them in. Kinda a catch 22 there and would take hundreds of miles to learn them.

you will know your MAF is off by looking at the difference between Commanded AFR and Actual AFR this is one very good reason to command the same AFR through the entire RPM range. At least until you know your MAF if correct. As long as you only see a tenth of a point difference through the run [without any KR recorded] your MAF is gold. so I command 11.9 and I get 11.76 and 11.9 logged. That is only 1 tenth of a difference on my O2 sensor. It will only ever go from 11.76 to 11.9 with 11.76 actually being 11.8. Make sense??

Long story short, IMO when tuning there is no need to wait for anything after a map change to go WOT and log UNLESS you changed your intake and/or modified your MAF tables. This is of course my opinion and others feel differently. consider this...when you go to get a Protune on the dyno do you think they run your car on the dyno for ~50 miles after each map change? nope! They MIGHT run it some after a MAF calibration but that's it.

Also if you guys are setting your CL exit to a low value like 1.1 or 1.25 you hardly ever spend any time in CL while WOT so there is no need for the ECU to learn any trims. now it needs to learn them for PT CL but there is very little danger in those situations and it can learn them during your normal driving.

this is just the opposite of OEM and Cobb OTS maps which keep you in CL until ~4500.

[SRTie4k]

I made all of those fueling changes you recommended Dano, now strangely my AFR is at around 12.4 at 3500 and gradually drops to high 11's over the next 500-1000 RPM.

Do I need to adjust the Fuel OL Commanded (Throttle Closed) table the same way?

[cld12pk2go]

FYI,

My fuel tables look like the following:



All 9 of the fuel tables (max enrichment not included) have the same values.

Two logs from tonight:





Raw data and tune attached.

[Dano]

Edit: Post up at least 3 WOT logs from say 2.8 to 6k and get the below PIDS

Accel Ped
RPM
KR
Load
MAF vt.
Actual AFR
Boost
WGDC

[amoosenamedhank]

Originally Posted by cld12pk2go FYI, My fuel tables look like the following: All 9 of the fuel tables (max enrichment not included) have the same values.

What's with the unused table? I've always wondered that

[cld12pk2go]

Originally Posted by amoosenamedhank What's with the unused table? I've always wondered that

No clue.

I just set all of my fuel tables to my target under WOT conditions so I never have to worry about which table the computer is using...

Originally Posted by Dano2010 Edit: Post up at least 3 WOT logs from say 2.8 to 6k and get the below PIDS Accel Ped RPM KR Load MAF vt. Actual AFR Boost WGDC

Logs from tonight added...

Also, it appears I am now on the cusp of being too agressive on my BD table as I am slightly overshooting my boost target on spoolup now...

[Frequentflyer]

Originally Posted by SRTie4k I made all of those fueling changes you recommended Dano, now strangely my AFR is at around 12.4 at 3500 and gradually drops to high 11's over the next 500-1000 RPM. Do I need to adjust the Fuel OL Commanded (Throttle Closed) table the same way?

No, it just sounds like your MAF may need some tweaking in that area (add 5% or so).

[amoosenamedhank]

Here is my lastest "WTF mate"... I spent all last night looking around on ATR trying to figure out what's causing this (which was certainly not appreciated by the wife).

Here is my dealo, I'm having trouble obtaining my WOT A/F target... better yet, I'm trying to understand why my target isn't my target.

If you take a look at these last few logs, my Equiv. ratio and actual AF are fairly on top of each other... but both are leaner than I'd prefer.

Remember us 6's don't have the OL Command table but otherwise every other fuel table I have commands 11.8:1 either after 1.25 Load or 2,500rpms.... So I'm completely stumped where this is coming from.

When I noticed this change... the only change I made in ATR was to my CL Max Throttle A-E tables. I changed the values from 75,60 up to 100 across the board. I'm going to change them back to see if that has anything to do with it... but I can't see how.

Log 17 was from before the CL Max Throttle A-E change the rest are after. Log 20 is the only 4th gear pull... where the hell are you guys doing all of these 4th gear pulls?!?!

[DSIT995]

I would log Commanded AFR as well to see if thats actually what is trying to reach or if its just super lean....
Thats pretty lean, ur 12.95 afr @ 17lbs of boost!

[amoosenamedhank]

How do you log Commanded AFR... I have Equiv. ratio and Actual AFR for choices but no commanded.

[Dano]

you dont' "log" commanded AFR you just know what it is by setting up your tables in ATR.

this is kinda geting way OT but...what are you commanding and is it the same in every table?

and it would be good to log Acc Position so we can see exactly when you go WOT and give us one cell or two before WOT. it may take a cell or two for your AFRs to get in line so this is why we need to see PT then WOT transition.

[amoosenamedhank]

Originally Posted by Dano2010 you dont' "log" commanded AFR you just know what it is by setting up your tables in ATR. this is kinda geting way OT but...what are you commanding and is it the same in every table? and it would be good to log Acc Position so we can see exactly when you go WOT and give us one cell or two before WOT. it may take a cell or two for your AFRs to get in line so this is why we need to see PT then WOT transition.

Every table I can dictate AF ratio in, I have it set for 11.8:1 from either 2,500 to RL or 1.25-2.0 load. I have interpolated a few values before that on my CL command tables but other than that, 11.8:1 across the board every table.

I'm not so concerned about the last log where it took a cell or two to dip down, but more the fact that it's not staying down through out the run like it had before.

[Dano]

in 2 of the 4 logs the 12.xx AFR are occuring in the 4.42 to 4.5vt range. Baybe bump up your MAF in that range.

So you are saying that before this wasn't hapening?

[amoosenamedhank]

Take a look at this older log. No WOT AF ratio command was changed nor any hardware was changed between any of these logs and this one is sitting pretty.

[DSIT995]

hmmm, are u sure? I can log/show the commanded AFR on the DH, I just assumed u could do it on the AP as well.... I could be mistaken

Lemme check it and see to make sure

EDIT:

With the DH u can log the commanded AFR's, which I like b/c Ill have them both up when doing runs and will see any variations between the Cmd & Actual

& this pic was taken with the key on but the car was not started so pay no attention to the values its showing

Back on topic! Sorry Dano

[amoosenamedhank]

Well I think I'm going to dive in on my MAF cal. I did add a TP since the original calculations... so who the hell knows. It was just strange that this is just now occurring and with no hardware change.

[SRTie4k]

Well I finally got the time to make some more runs, and it looks like my AFR spikes to about 12.2-12.5 initially on spoolup then quickly drops to 11.8, which is maintained until redline. 11.8 is being commanded when I hit that initial spike according to my DH, so my tables are good. I did notice my fuel pressure dropping to 1550-1600 when it goes lean though, so I think it's simply my fuel pump unable to keep up with the instant demand.

I guess it's finally time to invest in some KMD internals or a CPE pump.

[Frequentflyer]

1550-1600 is not that bad. If it's hitting <1,300, I'd be worried.

[SRTie4k]

Originally Posted by Frequentflyer 1550-1600 is not that bad. If it's hitting <1,300, I'd be worried.

Regardless, I've already seen it drop to 1400 at times, so I know I need to upgrade it soon, especially considering I want a DP sometime around summer.

Anyways, it looks like cld12pk2go also has a quick spike in AFR, so maybe I don't need to be as alarmed.

[cld12pk2go]

A "spike" to 12.2 around spoolup is nothing to be concerned about.

A spike to 13.5 would be.

Even with all of my tables dialed in to 11.8:1 and my MAF tuned as well as possible, I still see an AFR range of approx 11.8:1 +/- 0.5 for ~98% of my data points. Probably > 90% are within +/- 0.2. This excludes data points that are richer due to KR.

We will probably never have exactly 11.8:1 all the time b/c there is only resolution of ~0.15 in our WBO2.

[Dano]

Updated logs at 65* AMB temps. Looks like my restricted BD table is still able to add DC to reach target at the 20* warmer temps. We'll see if it can handle 40*+ warmer temps in a few months LOL

in a log or two, am now getting a slight spike at spoolup that wasn't there before which kicks in BD to reduce DC and I drop too much boost. I am going back in and removing the -0.01 value from my 1.00 overrun cell so it will not react. The spike is only .5-.75 PSI so I'll just let it spike and see how it reacts.

My built in higher target at 4K should allow it to smoothly come back down without BD jumping in...we'll see.

[XLT_66]

I did all my original tuning in about 40-50 degree weather. Car was running great. It hit 82 degrees here yesterday and I went and did some logs. Everything still looked fantastic.

However, I'm not sure if it's temp related or not but I'm seeing STUPID amounts of KR when cruising in any gear right around the 3000 RPM range. I believe it has something to do with transition from CL/OL or something but I haven't had time look further into it.

I have it set to transition at 1.15 load and/or 3,000 RPM I believe. I'm seeing KR anywhere from 1.0-5.5 and it will be steady for up to about 5-6 seconds if I just sit at that same RPM.

Any suggestions?