Gen 2 Cobb ATR discussion

[XLT_66]

Originally Posted by BlueStreak According to Dano in his boost tuning thread, changing the CL - Max Throttle A-E tables to 100 in all cells forces the ECU to ignore throttle position when exiting to OL. The ECU then defaults to the load exit values. Link

That's what I was thinking. Seems like if I have an CL Max Load limit then if I'm hard enough on the throttle to pass up that limit in 1st or 2nd, then I don't think I care how far I push the pedal down. If I'm making enough load then I want it to target my OL AFRs regardless...

[rfinkle2]

Originally Posted by XLT_66 That's what I was thinking. Seems like if I have an CL Max Load limit then if I'm hard enough on the throttle to pass up that limit in 1st or 2nd, then I don't think I care how far I push the pedal down. If I'm making enough load then I want it to target my OL AFRs regardless...

With all of the above being 100% perfectly sound, I believe that @Nataphen is using a combination of Load and Throttle position to dictate when his car transitions to open loop.

I have been doing the same, but imagine that that it will complicate the process of limiting boost per gear via the APP tables.

[Todd98SE]

Originally Posted by BlueStreak Do you have the Knock Retard Offset Table? This table presumably tames what the ECU determines to be knock based off the knock sensor up to a certain threshold (the threshold being set by this table). It is not known if the values in this table are in fact timing degrees or some other value. I can't remember where it was mentioned, but DJ bumped up his higher RPM/Load values to 1.1. I went ahead and bumped mine up from .8 to 1 to offset some of the higher RPM/load knock readings. This has taken care of my random knock events in my pulls. In all of my map revisions after changing the offset values, I take any knock readings as legitimate as high rpm/load knock only occurs when I play with timing now. This may be something for you to look in to.

I went to 0.9 with the same RPM and load values as your map and will go to 1.0 if needed. Thanks for the info, that's good stuff that is easily overlooked.

[Nataphen]

CL max load, 1.00
CL max throttle, 45% in all tables

My AFRs have been perfect so far.

[Todd98SE]

Here are 3 logs after the changes I made yesterday. Datalog #1 was yesterday afternoon in about 75-80 degree weather, and 2&3 were this morning in 55 degree weather.

One thing I did notice in ATR was that all my Ignition tables for high and low throttle, CL or OL, knocking or no knocking are all the same. I'm wondering if I should leave the AFR's and boost targets alone and simply pull a little timing from the load and rpm regions in the knocking tables and see if that helps.

[rfinkle2]

Originally Posted by Todd98SE Here are 3 logs after the changes I made yesterday. Datalog #1 was yesterday afternoon in about 75-80 degree weather, and 2&3 were this morning in 55 degree weather. One thing I did notice in ATR was that all my Ignition tables for high and low throttle, CL or OL, knocking or no knocking are all the same. I'm wondering if I should leave the AFR's and boost targets alone and simply pull a little timing from the load and rpm regions in the knocking tables and see if that helps.

I'm not sure if it matters, but in the ATR helpfile, Christian mentions that the knock tables (knock and no knock) are the same from the factory, and imo hints @ leaving them the same.

EDIT: not meaning do not change the ignition values, but when changing the values, to change the high throttle knock / no knock tables to mirror eachother.

For convenience: the below italics from the helpfile:
The ECU has two pairs of main ignition advance look-up tables. As you have the software open, you can press the CTRL+K keys then you will be prompted if you want to revert the ECU back to stock values. By doing this you can see how the factory settings are the same for two pairs of main ignition advance look-up tables. Being that these tables are set the same from the factory, you will likely want to set these pair of tables the same unless you have determined a better strategy.

[Ckmazdaspeed3]

Ok, so my car is in getting a 3" inlet and maf housing right now. When it is finished this afternoon, I am going to need to do a maf calibration. I'm kind of nervous as I know that incorrectly scaled maf can lead to zoom zoom boom boom.

So i checked out the atr worksheet, but am a bit confused (probably due to 3 nights of five hours of sleep... Doesn't work for me). So could anyone give me a quick run trough of how to safely calibrate this bitch when I get it this afternoon?

The map I am running is the map I've been working on (based off OTS stage 2), richened to 11afr for the wot table, wgdc at 50% of normal, and max boost at 14ish psi.

I do understand how to do the data log.

[rfinkle2]

Originally Posted by Ckmazdaspeed3 Ok, so my car is in getting a 3" inlet and maf housing right now. When it is finished this afternoon, I am going to need to do a maf calibration. I'm kind of nervous as I know that incorrectly scaled maf can lead to zoom zoom boom boom. So i checked out the atr worksheet, but am a bit confused (probably due to 3 nights of five hours of sleep... Doesn't work for me). So could anyone give me a quick run trough of how to safely calibrate this bitch when I get it this afternoon? The map I am running is the map I've been working on (based off OTS stage 2), richened to 11afr for the wot table, wgdc at 50% of normal, and max boost at 14ish psi.

Ck...

First thing, you'll likely have to just get the car running with a 3" maf, and I believe it may be rough running.

This is cut and pasted from a @djuosnteisn post and you will have to apply this formula for your housing.

Okay, had a quick sec to look, and I think stock MAF size is 2.62" (66.5mm), so the correct calculation for going to a 3.25" intake is this:

Area of stock: pi * (1.31^ 2) = 5.388554

Area of 3.25": pi * (1.625 ^ 2) = 8.2915625


% increase = 5.388554/ 8.2915625= 1.54

So you need to multiply MAF curve by 1.54 to get the car running in first place for 3.25" intake

NOTE THE ABOVE IS FOR A 3.25 " intake,,, but the same formula applies.

I believe you will want to drive a few miles (40-50) without boosting heavily to have the car store your LTFT's.

[jwilkins88]

Originally Posted by Ckmazdaspeed3 Ok, so my car is in getting a 3" inlet and maf housing right now. When it is finished this afternoon, I am going to need to do a maf calibration. I'm kind of nervous as I know that incorrectly scaled maf can lead to zoom zoom boom boom. So i checked out the atr worksheet, but am a bit confused (probably due to 3 nights of five hours of sleep... Doesn't work for me). So could anyone give me a quick run trough of how to safely calibrate this bitch when I get it this afternoon? The map I am running is the map I've been working on (based off OTS stage 2), richened to 11afr for the wot table, wgdc at 50% of normal, and max boost at 14ish psi. I do understand how to do the data log.

Keith... You car probably won't even idle unless you do the maf cal beforehand...

Put these values in there... Should be a good starting point

http://farm6.static.flickr.com/5303/...24d2cb26_o.png
http://farm6.static.flickr.com/5186/...f61a6ce5_o.png
http://farm6.static.flickr.com/5221/...7b7f9dbe_o.png
http://farm6.static.flickr.com/5227/...f4f03b77_o.png

[Ziggo]

Originally Posted by rfinkle2 Area of stock: pi * (2.62 ^ 2) = 21.55 Area of 3.25": pi * (3.25 ^ 2) = 33.17 % increase = 33.17 / 21.55 = 1.54 So you need to multiply MAF curve by 1.54 to get the car running in first place for 3.25" intake

Careful with your math. Area of a circle is pi*R^2 not pi*D^2

Doesn't make a difference here cause it's a comparison so the error get divided out, but still....

[djuosnteisn]

^ beat me to it lol.




CK, the initial goal is to simply get the car to start and idle properly. This is where the calculated scaling comes into play. Once the car starts and idles, watch the fuel trims and do a proper maf cal from there.

It's simple, and you can probably get it dialed in 3 revs i would think. Don't go wot til things look safe up to 100 g/s or so, and even then, set your wot AFR targets to something safe like 11.5 initially, then calibrate that portion of the maf curve til logged afr's match, and finally then lean it out to whatever AFR you wish to run.

[rfinkle2]

Originally Posted by Ziggo Careful with your math. Area of a circle is pi*R^2 not pi*D^2 Doesn't make a difference here cause it's a comparison so the error get divided out, but still....

I edited my above quote for accuracy. I was taking my mother to the doctor, and didn't bother to check the mathematics.

Thanks Ziggo.

[Todd98SE]

Here are 3 WOT runs with my latest revision after pulling a little timing upon spool up. Looks like I have plenty of WGDC left to play with, AFR were spot on, and boost comes on quickly follows my boost curve through redline.

I will probably add a little more boost in the mid-upper range and pull a little more timing in the low end. If that works I may go slightly leaner on my AFR's. I compared the stage 2 OTS timing with my Alpha Stage 1 map timing and it is much more aggressive.

Compared to my best Alpha tuned Stage 1 map I am about .3 seconds faster from 50-75 with this map even though my MAF g/s are the same or even lower with the stage 2 map.

Thanks to everyone who has helped me and offered advice, it has been very rewarding to learn how to tune with ATR. I'm looking forward to continuing my education.

[indianaryan]

I've been messing with the WGDC table for a while now, and I've got it pretty close. See the attached logs. I'm targeting 18 psi at 3k rpm, and I usually hit it at about 4k rpm, surrounded by low 17's. I didn't go to redline in the runs, but when I have, I've tapered down to about 16.5/17 psi.

I left the fuel tables where they were for the 93 octane OTS map, so they're a little rich. I'm consistently seeing KR, never above 2 though. Should I set the AFR to 11.6 and monitor the knock?

I'm going to experiment with raising the load x gear tables to 2.3. I think they may be limiting like they have for others. Although I'm reaching my BT, it seems that I'm reaching it later than others (not until about 4k rpm) and it tapers quickly to low 17's or upper 16's.

Any thoughts?

[BlueStreak]

Originally Posted by indianaryan I've been messing with the WGDC table for a while now, and I've got it pretty close. See the attached logs. I'm targeting 18 psi at 3k rpm, and I usually hit it at about 4k rpm, surrounded by low 17's. I didn't go to redline in the runs, but when I have, I've tapered down to about 16.5/17 psi. I left the fuel tables where they were for the 93 octane OTS map, so they're a little rich. I'm consistently seeing KR, never above 2 though. Should I set the AFR to 11.6 and monitor the knock? I'm going to experiment with raising the load x gear tables to 2.3. I think they may be limiting like they have for others. Although I'm reaching my BT, it seems that I'm reaching it later than others (not until about 4k rpm) and it tapers quickly to low 17's or upper 16's. Any thoughts?

Judging by the throttle position on your datalog, I'd say you're hitting the load limit on the "Throttle Requested Load X Gear Table(s)" which is why you're not hitting full boost. If you look at the throttle position throughout your pull, you'll notice that it opens fully then closes then proceeds to open again.

I'm assuming your MAF is properly calibrated w.r.t my reply.

[Todd98SE]

Originally Posted by indianaryan I've been messing with the WGDC table for a while now, and I've got it pretty close. See the attached logs. I'm targeting 18 psi at 3k rpm, and I usually hit it at about 4k rpm, surrounded by low 17's. I didn't go to redline in the runs, but when I have, I've tapered down to about 16.5/17 psi. I left the fuel tables where they were for the 93 octane OTS map, so they're a little rich. I'm consistently seeing KR, never above 2 though. Should I set the AFR to 11.6 and monitor the knock? I'm going to experiment with raising the load x gear tables to 2.3. I think they may be limiting like they have for others. Although I'm reaching my BT, it seems that I'm reaching it later than others (not until about 4k rpm) and it tapers quickly to low 17's or upper 16's. Any thoughts?

I had the same issue and despite my actual load being higher than then TRL X gear tables in the logs I was never able to hit my midrange boost targets until I changed the TRL X gear tables over to 2.3 load.

[rfinkle2]

Originally Posted by indianaryan I've been messing with the WGDC table for a while now, and I've got it pretty close. See the attached logs. I'm targeting 18 psi at 3k rpm, and I usually hit it at about 4k rpm, surrounded by low 17's. I didn't go to redline in the runs, but when I have, I've tapered down to about 16.5/17 psi. I left the fuel tables where they were for the 93 octane OTS map, so they're a little rich. I'm consistently seeing KR, never above 2 though. Should I set the AFR to 11.6 and monitor the knock? I'm going to experiment with raising the load x gear tables to 2.3. I think they may be limiting like they have for others. Although I'm reaching my BT, it seems that I'm reaching it later than others (not until about 4k rpm) and it tapers quickly to low 17's or upper 16's. Any thoughts?

The ignition advance in the high 1.8 thru 2.0 load region (low rpm's) is very aggressive IMO on the gen2 OTS maps.

i.e. - The ignition map is tailored to a slow boost onset on the gen2 maps.

I had the same knock issues when I brought the boost in per the targets table.

If you pull the appropriate timing in the ignition tables, that knock will go away.

I believe that @indianaryan is waiting to up his throttle - req load x tables until he gets his long awaited internals.

[indianaryan]

Thanks everyone for the responses. I'll lower WGDC a bit and raise the throttle - req load x tables. It sounds like the Autotech internals have been delayed a couple more weeks, so I'll go ahead and make these changes now instead of later. I haven't had any fp issues since it's been warmer thankfully. So I feel comfortable doing this now instead of waiting.

I'll pull the timing on the low end to get rid of this knock, then I'll raise AFR to 11.6 and go from there.

This will keep me busy until I get my internals.

[rfinkle2]

In italics is a quote copied and pasted from the Cobb forums (Braden)
thanks to @Dano2010 for monitoring the cobb forums and catching this...

The BT logic is still undergoing some surgery. We are working on a solution that will adhere more closely to the desired "targets". Currently through extensive testing we have found that the per gear throttle load targets need to follow fairly close to "actual load" and the wastegate duty cycles need to be fairly low as a "base". On the low end of the power curve between 2500-4500 it is important to be within .05 or .10 UNDER actual load. As RPM increases towards 5500 the targets don't seem to matter as much since the turbo cannot achieve the load. Hope that helps!


The following is my opinion based on what I've seen in the logs (my own and others)

Again, gen1 guys have already been through load tuning, and have likely worked out their timing and load values, so that boost targets are met, while quelling KR.

IMO, if you are actually hitting the targets in the areas that the boost targets recommends, i.e. peak boost by 3000 rpms, you will see in your logs that you are probably hitting load values of greater than 2.

Why is this significant? I believe that the timing in the rpm ranges referenced above are a bit aggressive on the gen2 maps, and when the boost is brought on quicker by upping the load target tables, it also brings in the heat, and many of have seen bouts of knock in these high load areas.

Anyone who is running an aggressive (compared to OTS) throttle - req load x gear (normal bat) set of tables should be able to remodel the timing in this area to quell those small bouts of knock.

This is just my opinion, but likely has to do with the previous topic of the inability to hit boost targets because of interference of load tables.

[Ckmazdaspeed3]

Ok, so I have my new custom 3.5" intake/inlet going into the new 2871. We did a maf calibration and everything seemed eh ok. After a few reflashes to get boost dialed in I decided to check my trims and while they are fine at WOT, idle and medium acceleration, they are at 20.3 when I let off the gas but have it in gear, or if I very lightly press the pedal. The problem is that they are not consistent with a particular airflow, so I don't know how to tune it out.

The weird thing is, we got the calibration really accurate, and for a whole 75+ miles everything was fine before this started happening.

Anybody know what I am missing?

Oh, and on a side note, we can't get above 16psi boost, but we are pretty certain that this is because the internal wastegate had a 7psi spring. I am ordering a wastegate with a higher spring rate tomorrow.

Here is a log:

[goodfella16]

question:

ive been tweaking and tuning a map for a couple days now..but ive noticed consistantly between 3300-4100 i get ever so little bit of knock EVERY log..i wanted to fix this but idk what i should do..attatched are 2 diff logs but show the knock generally at the same place

[rfinkle2]

Originally Posted by goodfella16 question: ive been tweaking and tuning a map for a couple days now..but ive noticed consistantly between 3300-4100 i get ever so little bit of knock EVERY log..i wanted to fix this but idk what i should do..attatched are 2 diff logs but show the knock generally at the same place

@goodfella16,

It is recommended that you change both your high throttle knock and no knock tables to the same values.

Those tables are only modeled up to 2.0 load, so you will want to cross referance the rpm value, and pull .5 * of timing or so. If you highlight the cell, you can hit the - sign five times consecutively. That will pull a 10th of a degree each time.

Post if you have any questions, or you can always pm me.

It also looks like your trims may be a bit off.

Have you had a chance to do an maf log?

[rfinkle2]

Originally Posted by Ckmazdaspeed3 Ok, so I have my new custom 3.5" intake/inlet going into the new 2871. We did a maf calibration and everything seemed eh ok. After a few reflashes to get boost dialed in I decided to check my trims and while they are fine at WOT, idle and medium acceleration, they are at 20.3 when I let off the gas but have it in gear, or if I very lightly press the pedal. The problem is that they are not consistent with a particular airflow, so I don't know how to tune it out. The weird thing is, we got the calibration really accurate, and for a whole 75+ miles everything was fine before this started happening. Anybody know what I am missing? Oh, and on a side note, we can't get above 16psi boost, but we are pretty certain that this is because the internal wastegate had a 7psi spring. I am ordering a wastegate with a higher spring rate tomorrow. Here is a log:

@Ckmazdaspeed3 , I hadn't seen your log before, but pm me when you have the chance.

I think it is your idling volts that have changed, it is pulling down your commanded fuel pressure pretty bad.

[Ckmazdaspeed3]

Yes it is finkle, I should always be at a minimum of 430.1. So, how do I fix this? Good eye btw.

[Ckmazdaspeed3]

Ok, so here is my fuel pressure table (finkle sent a pm requesting it, but I didn't have the option to attach it to the pm). I guess this is the one that would be used?

[Nataphen]

Since we don't have FFS tables yet, is there a way to pull fuel on shifts? I haven't messed with it yet, and haven't even messed with ATR much at all lately since I'm very happy with my tune. I've been working a lot too, so that doesn't help. Does anyone have any idea of how to take care of this?

[bewsted]

Not sure but I was wondering the same thing....trying to desolve first gear backfire?

Also curious as to if anyone has increased the desired fuel pressure? Not sure if their would be any benefit to messing with it at all as anything about 1675 @ WOT seems to be safe.

[PapaSmurf]

I backfire every damn gear if i shift at the right spot. but i think its my HKS SSQV to blame, i really dont mind it though, makes all the hood rats drop to the floor cause they think its a drive by. haha

[xsilent13x]

Originally Posted by MicaBlueMS3 I backfire every damn gear if i shift at the right spot. but i think its my HKS SSQV to blame, i really dont mind it though, makes all the hood rats drop to the floor cause they think its a drive by. haha

Is your HKS VTA?

[PapaSmurf]

Originally Posted by xsilent13x Is your HKS VTA?

nah nigga I aint stupid.

But HKS SSQV backfires even though its in recirc.

[xsilent13x]

Originally Posted by MicaBlueMS3 nah nigga I aint stupid. But HKS SSQV backfires even though its in recirc.

Yea my Turbosmart DP BPV on full recirc will backfire occasionally but not loud at all.

[bewsted]

I get it 1 to 2nd and 3rd to 4th...


1st to 2nd is what makes the hood rats drop out here with my straight pipe lol

[rfinkle2]

In light of post #379,

I wanted to get some clarification to make sure all was well in load table trl land with Cobb.

below is copied and pasted (my question and Braden's answer)

Quote Originally Posted by rfinkle2 View Post
Braden, Christian and Cobb,
It seems there is little doubt now that the throttle req - load x gear (norm bat)tables are effecting some of the boost based tunes.
Would it be safe to state that if one took the necessary precautions, you could effectively negate those tables by setting the loads to values in the 2.3 - 3 region from spool to redline? (i.e. 2500rpms - redline )
Of course, when doing so, it would be wise to take necessary precautions such as lowering the wastegate duty cycles.
This seems to be the only way that I've been able to create a smooth boost curve and achieve boost targets.

Braden's answer:
In the past I've found that raising the pear gear loads will result in a much more overboost prone condition than keeping them lower than actual load. You can certainly mess with it any which way that seems fit

[PapaSmurf]

If its only worried about overboost and you have your boost dynamic table set right than you shouldnt have a problem correct?

all my logs since setting my calc load to 3.0 seem perfectly fine, only overboost on occasion by .5 if that.

[rfinkle2]

Originally Posted by MicaBlueMS3 If its only worried about overboost and you have your boost dynamic table set right than you shouldnt have a problem correct? all my logs since setting my calc load to 3.0 seem perfectly fine, only overboost on occasion by .5 if that.

Totally, 100% correct.

I just wanted to be sure from Cobb themselves.

[PapaSmurf]

Nata, looks like you were not the only one who noticed the idle tables were not working. I have had mine set to 900 for awhile and they always drop to 700-750 no matter what. Hopefully they fix that and come out with LC/FFS!

[mrFanel]

Eeeeeeeeeeeeeee! So much info! My head is going kaboom! I am looking forward to messing around with ATR... perhaps we could start a collective Wiki? I can host it on my webserver (I have a ton of bandwidth and storage)... I think a lot of people here have a lot of knowledge to contribute in an organized fashion!!

Wudya say?

[rfinkle2]

I have to thank my friend @Abilor for creating a thread that explains all of the acronyms you may come across on the site (msf), and more specifically, the tuning threads.

here:
http://www.mazdaspeedforum.org/forum/foru...cronyms-79573/

[PapaSmurf]

Couple recent logs I took today, Ambient temp is about 70-75.

Im trying to get a little more boost out from 5800+, well atleast trying to hold 18, i think i might need to raise my WGDC a point or two from that RPM up.

dont mind the knock in the 3rd gear log at the end, accidently hit off rev limiter not paying attention. haha

oh and i think my car is pretty quick, im getting torque steer in 4th gear haha.

[wolly6973]

So fully bolted and still barely hitting 270 g/s.
I was hoping for a little more.
I should be fully bolted in the next week or 2, so we will see what happens.

Have you played with timing much?