Gen 2 Cobb ATR discussion

[rfinkle2]

Originally Posted by Teal Right. But from where I sit now, my WGDC tables are going to be a bit high for the targeted boost. If I reduce the tables I have right now, should I zero out the error comp and use those values? Or keep error comp at the OTS point and let it do its thing? I am hitting my gargets but not until after a slow spike on spool up (close to 19psi then slowly it finds 17.2 by 5k rpm or so). I have lots of things I'd like to try and might try, just looking to see how others are going about it.

@Teal,

I would try to think of the wgdc and wgdc boost error comp tables this way...

Remember when using a microscope in high school? There is a coarse adjustment knob (wgdc table) and a fine adjustment knob (wgdc boost error comp table).

Your goal when looking through the microscope is to set the coarse adjustment (wgdc table) pretty close to where you can see the object, but know that the fine adjustment knob (wgdc boost error comp) will make things crystal clear.

The wgdc table (coarse adjustment) has to be adjusted by us, but we are lucky enough to have the ecu make the fine adjustment (wgdc boost error comp) for us on the fly.

[Teal]

So I made some adjustments and then did a run during my lunch break.

It is looking better than before but my wgdc from the table and the actual are very different. however, it is more controlled since i backed off the error comp a bit (ots,ish).

Have a look at my boost targets, wgdc, and log in 3rd gear then shifting into 4th. 3rd looks ok but then 4th I am over boost targets and it is not going down all that quickly.

edit: Thanks rfink - I guess with that analogy the wgdc tables are A#1 when it comes to meeting boost targets, and once you bump the part under the microscope with your finger (ambient air changes) you have the error-comp to bring it back to where you want it.

[f-castrillo]

So I'm definitely going the downpipe route soon. I'm currently leaning towards CP-e, since they're a little cheaper than COBB's, even with the added high-flow cat. But now I'm faced with the option of adding a 3rd O2 sensor bung, should I choose to.

My question is will I really have a need for the 3rd O2 bung? Does anybody here actively monitor EGTs, or do you all just rely on logged AFRs, KR, etc.?

[rfinkle2]

Originally Posted by f-castrillo So I'm definitely going the downpipe route soon. I'm currently leaning towards CP-e, since they're a little cheaper than COBB's, even with the added high-flow cat. But now I'm faced with the option of adding a 3rd O2 sensor bung, should I choose to. My question is will I really have a need for the 3rd O2 bung? Does anybody here actively monitor EGTs, or do you all just rely on logged AFRs, KR, etc.?

If you were going to mount an egt bung, it would be best to weld a bung onto the exhaust manifold.

I have no clue what my egt's are, and like you, go by bat's, afr's and kr.

Eventually, if I upgrade the exhaust manifold, I will likely get an egt bung welded in.

I have the UR catted dp, and it comes with a plug in the event that you don't incorporate an aftermarket wideband immediately.

[wolly6973]

Originally Posted by f-castrillo So I'm definitely going the downpipe route soon. I'm currently leaning towards CP-e, since they're a little cheaper than COBB's, even with the added high-flow cat. But now I'm faced with the option of adding a 3rd O2 sensor bung, should I choose to. My question is will I really have a need for the 3rd O2 bung? Does anybody here actively monitor EGTs, or do you all just rely on logged AFRs, KR, etc.?

Check out the CNT dp also. Much less $$, and it looks to be a sturdy piece IMO...

[f-castrillo]

Originally Posted by wolly6973 Check out the CNT dp also. Much less $$, and it looks to be a sturdy piece IMO...

I did actually stumble across that, and am really considering it now. I'm almost ready to push the "Checkout" button if nobody stops me lol. I just can't find any reviews of it on a Genpu.

I did manage to find a mention of the catted version getting a CEL, though. For emissions purposes in California, we can't have any more than two CEL codes disabled, correct? I know P0101 (some MAF code) is disabled in my ATR by default already. I just hope whatever CEL that pops up (if any) from installing a DP is one that can be disabled via ATR.

edit: @wolly6973 i just noticed that you had the CNT catted DP installed LOL. Any impressions as far as build quality and whether or not it triggers a CEL in our Genpus?

[wolly6973]

Looks like a nice piece to me, that's why I recommended it. I am by no means an expert at judging these kinds of things though.

I would intermittently get a CEL with it, so I just disabled it in ATR. You may be able to get an extender to fix the problem though.

ERZ Performance is a vendor here on the site, and they may give you a package deal on the dp + CEL fix.

Be aware though that the flange is different than what most aftermarket and the stock CBE are, so you will need the "adapter" to make it work, or get your CBE chopped and have their style of flange put on.

[f-castrillo]

Originally Posted by wolly6973 Looks like a nice piece to me, that's why I recommended it. I am by no means an expert at judging these kinds of things though. I would intermittently get a CEL with it, so I just disabled it in ATR. You may be able to get an extender to fix the problem though. ERZ Performance is a vendor here on the site, and they may give you a package deal on the dp + CEL fix. Be aware though that the flange is different than what most aftermarket and the stock CBE are, so you will need the "adapter" to make it work, or get your CBE chopped and have their style of flange put on.

Note taken, thank you

I ordered from the CNT website, and got the recommended O2 adapter with it. I'd rather fix/prevent CEL's from a mechanical standpoint before resorting to disabling it via ATR.

[Teal]

Let us all know how the DP is cast. Always nice to find an inexpensive piece that works well. I know that's big in the honda racing community - if it's cheap and doesnt break - get it because you'll smash into something before it wears out!

p.s. how do you quickly put a 'mention' into a post? i r noob

[bewsted]

Type @username in a post

tapa dat ass

[f-castrillo]

Has anybody altered the Ign BAT vs ECT - % used and Comp A-B tables? I've been upping the values slightly to pull timing at higher BATs, but I was curious what combinations of value increases between the % used and A/B tables others were using.

Properly set up, are these the tables that would let us run lots of timing in colder temps, and still pull enough timing in hot weather? Or am I better off sacrificing cold-weather timing and pulling a few degrees to ensure I don't knock in warmer temps?

[rfinkle2]

Originally Posted by f-castrillo Has anybody altered the Ign BAT vs ECT - % used and Comp A-B tables? I've been upping the values slightly to pull timing at higher BATs, but I was curious what combinations of value increases between the % used and A/B tables others were using. Properly set up, are these the tables that would let us run lots of timing in colder temps, and still pull enough timing in hot weather? Or am I better off sacrificing cold-weather timing and pulling a few degrees to ensure I don't knock in warmer temps?

I used the table that pulls the most timing @ high bat's in both of the A & B tables (the comp AB tables).

Those values are multiplied by the other corrective table (Ign bat vs ECT - % used) but it maxes @ 1.0 load.

I have been lucky enough not to see bat's greater than >120 @ wot, so those tables never affect my actual spark advance.

---On another note: I used a spreadsheet to find the lowest values from the high throttle ignition table and the max igntion tables, and use those in all of the ignition tables.

(strange how the high throttle ignition tables actually contain higher values in low load than the max ignition tables)

[phate]

Originally Posted by f-castrillo Has anybody altered the Ign BAT vs ECT - % used and Comp A-B tables? I've been upping the values slightly to pull timing at higher BATs, but I was curious what combinations of value increases between the % used and A/B tables others were using. Properly set up, are these the tables that would let us run lots of timing in colder temps, and still pull enough timing in hot weather? Or am I better off sacrificing cold-weather timing and pulling a few degrees to ensure I don't knock in warmer temps?

Yes, these are the tables you need to use to run max timing at normal BAT's, then pull timing with increasing BAT's.

You can modify either the multiplier or the "actual" table. They are used in conjunction with each other, so the end result can be had either way.

Edit: they work well, but if I remember correctly, actual operating temp of 190° is an interpolated region, so you need to do some math from there.

[Teal]

@bewsted thanks

[f-castrillo]

Originally Posted by phate Yes, these are the tables you need to use to run max timing at normal BAT's, then pull timing with increasing BAT's. You can modify either the multiplier or the "actual" table. They are used in conjunction with each other, so the end result can be had either way. Edit: they work well, but if I remember correctly, actual operating temp of 190° is an interpolated region, so you need to do some math from there.

Thanks man, the highest BATs I've seen in 100F weather here is ~150F, so that shouldn't be a problem. Ambient temps are already cooling off fast.

I'm excited guys, my DP just came in today, and I'll be attempting the install tomorrow morning/afternoon. I know most of you already reccommended starting the tune from scratch based on an OTS map, but are there any tables I can get away with transferring over to the new map? I'm thinking at least the following can be moved no problem:

Boost Targets (and the associated limiter tables)
WGDC
TRL A-C (neutered, set @ 3.0)
TRL x gear (neutered, set @ 3.0)
TRL Baro vs ECT (neutured, set @ 3.0)
HPFP tables (raised from stock levels to accomodate KMD HPFP)
Closed Loop tables
MAF cal

Are there any other tables that can be safely moved over from my map?

[Bucker]

Originally Posted by f-castrillo Thanks man, the highest BATs I've seen in 100F weather here is ~150F, so that shouldn't be a problem. Ambient temps are already cooling off fast. I'm excited guys, my DP just came in today, and I'll be attempting the install tomorrow morning/afternoon. I know most of you already reccommended starting the tune from scratch based on an OTS map, but are there any tables I can get away with transferring over to the new map? I'm thinking at least the following can be moved no problem: Boost Targets (and the associated limiter tables) WGDC TRL A-C (neutered, set @ 3.0) TRL x gear (neutered, set @ 3.0) TRL Baro vs ECT (neutured, set @ 3.0) HPFP tables (raised from stock levels to accomodate KMD HPFP) Closed Loop tables MAF cal Are there any other tables that can be safely moved over from my map?

The load tables should already be good to go except for the trl x gear tables. The MAF cal is the most important to carry over. Everything else is easy.

[rfinkle2]

Originally Posted by f-castrillo Thanks man, the highest BATs I've seen in 100F weather here is ~150F, so that shouldn't be a problem. Ambient temps are already cooling off fast. I'm excited guys, my DP just came in today, and I'll be attempting the install tomorrow morning/afternoon. I know most of you already reccommended starting the tune from scratch based on an OTS map, but are there any tables I can get away with transferring over to the new map? I'm thinking at least the following can be moved no problem: Boost Targets (and the associated limiter tables) WGDC TRL A-C (neutered, set @ 3.0) TRL x gear (neutered, set @ 3.0) TRL Baro vs ECT (neutured, set @ 3.0) HPFP tables (raised from stock levels to accomodate KMD HPFP) Closed Loop tables MAF cal Are there any other tables that can be safely moved over from my map?

You may have just forgotten to add them to your post, but any ignition tables that you have altered can be transferred over as well.

Congrats on your DP btw.

[faeker]

Can you guys take a quick look at my logs? I'm still in the dark as to how to know if everything's ok or if something's fucked up. This thread has been a big help, but it's a ton to read lol.

[rfinkle2]

Originally Posted by faeker Can you guys take a quick look at my logs? I'm still in the dark as to how to know if everything's ok or if something's fucked up. This thread has been a big help, but it's a ton to read lol.

Nothing is fucked up!

Those logs are pretty clean, a bit on the conservative side actually.

What octane gasoline are you using?

[f-castrillo]

Originally Posted by rfinkle2 You may have just forgotten to add them to your post, but any ignition tables that you have altered can be transferred over as well. Congrats on your DP btw.

Thanks! Hopefully I don't screw up the install process lol.

I can get away with my current ignition timing tables? I just assumed that the change in VE would warrant different timing tables

[wolly6973]

Your current tables should be fine.
From what I have seen, dp is not as beneficial a mod as some say for genpu. Although, I would still recommend doing it.

[faeker]

Originally Posted by rfinkle2 Nothing is fucked up! Those logs are pretty clean, a bit on the conservative side actually. What octane gasoline are you using?

93 ftw. What could I do to get a lil more oomph out of the tune?

[bewsted]

Originally Posted by wolly6973 Your current tables should be fine. From what I have seen, dp is not as beneficial a mod as some say for genpu. Although, I would still recommend doing it.

MEH!

Anything you do to free the flow of exhaust downstream of the turbo is going to benefit in some way.

For me the Downpipe seemed to find a few ponies around the 4k to RL area.....

[f-castrillo]

Originally Posted by wolly6973 Your current tables should be fine. From what I have seen, dp is not as beneficial a mod as some say for genpu. Although, I would still recommend doing it.

I hope so, there's some differences between the OTS Stage1 CS+TIH map and the OTS Stage2 CS+TIH+IC maps. The Stage2 maps appear to have richer fuel tables than Stage1, among other things

Currently, I'm running 11.8 AFRs from 3000-6000, tapering to 11.1 at redline. OTS Stage2 has it pegged at 10.6 from 3000-redline. Can I assume that these settings will be OK on a Stage2 map, as well?

[bewsted]

You don't need to taper your afr @ redline...your losing power up top depending on what you have your RL set to.

[wolly6973]

Originally Posted by f-castrillo Thanks man, the highest BATs I've seen in 100F weather here is ~150F, so that shouldn't be a problem. Ambient temps are already cooling off fast.

150 F BATs?? That is crazy!! You definitely need to look into an IC upgrade next, or meth.

When I have 110 deg IAT, my BAT is usually around 100.

[f-castrillo]

Originally Posted by bewsted You don't need to taper your afr @ redline...your losing power up top depending on what you have your RL set to.

I will change it back to 11.8 then. The KR i was concerned with may have been false KR, so I have since adjusted the Knock Offset tables a tiny bit to help with that.

Originally Posted by wolly6973 150 F BATs?? That is crazy!! You definitely need to look into an IC upgrade next, or meth. When I have 110 deg IAT, my BAT is usually around 100.

This is during a WOT run in 100F temps, i should mention. But I wonder if I have a faulty TMIC. I'm looking at a 4th gear log from a few maps ago, and the IATs are at 97F at the coolest (5500 RPM), and BATs at those corresponding RPMs are 138-142F.

For those with the Corksport TMIC, are you getting similar BATs at WOT in hot weather? I'm slightly considering a FMIC, but I don't like how our genpu smiley covers most of the useful area of the FMIC, and how it doesn't use the stock crash bar.

[wolly6973]

ETS = best TMIC out there
Really does make a big difference for me.
Couple it with meth and you will be just fine for anything the stock turbo can do, unless you sit around in traffic all day long.

[f-castrillo]

Originally Posted by wolly6973 ETS = best TMIC out there Really does make a big difference for me. Couple it with meth and you will be just fine for anything the stock turbo can do, unless you sit around in traffic all day long.

I will research the ETS a little more, but the only differences I'm aware of between that and the Corksport is a .25" difference in core thickness and a few $$$ in price.

[wolly6973]

Yeah, it would be nice to have some good comparison logs from some people in the same area of the country.
I haven't paid much attention to other people's logs with the CS TMIC to know if yours is performing similarly to everyone else.

[BlueStreak]

The easiest way to kill a motor is running ignition timing that is too aggressive. Whenever I do a major hard parts change (such as a DP in your case castrillo), I always revert back to OTS timing values especially if I already started advancing them in a previous tune.

It may not be necessary but transferring timing tables over to a new map that will run a major hardware upgrade is too risky given that it is quite easy to add more timing in 3-4 map iterations IMO.

Also, you will require less WGDC to reach the same targeted boost with the DP. I would again back this off after a new hardware change just in case BUT I wouldn't assign the same importance as reverting to less aggressive timing values.


---
- Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[atvfreek]

Originally Posted by BlueStreak The easiest way to kill a motor is running ignition timing that is too aggressive. Whenever I do a major hard parts change (such as a DP in your case castrillo), I always revert back to OTS timing values especially if I already started advancing them in a previous tune. It may not be necessary but transferring timing tables over to a new map that will run a major hardware upgrade is too risky given that it is quite easy to add more timing in 3-4 map iterations IMO. Also, you will require less WGDC to reach the same targeted boost with the DP. I would again back this off after a new hardware change just in case BUT I wouldn't assign the same importance as reverting to less aggressive timing values. --- - Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

All this is very true. That's why each time I did a major change to my car I just started from an ots map. It gets it conservative and go from there. Once you know atr, it only takes a handful of maps to get dialed in pretty good. Then fine tune.

Sent from my MB300 using Tapatalk

[f-castrillo]

Originally Posted by BlueStreak The easiest way to kill a motor is running ignition timing that is too aggressive. Whenever I do a major hard parts change (such as a DP in your case castrillo), I always revert back to OTS timing values especially if I already started advancing them in a previous tune. It may not be necessary but transferring timing tables over to a new map that will run a major hardware upgrade is too risky given that it is quite easy to add more timing in 3-4 map iterations IMO. Also, you will require less WGDC to reach the same targeted boost with the DP. I would again back this off after a new hardware change just in case BUT I wouldn't assign the same importance as reverting to less aggressive timing values. --- - Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Originally Posted by atvfreek All this is very true. That's why each time I did a major change to my car I just started from an ots map. It gets it conservative and go from there. Once you know atr, it only takes a handful of maps to get dialed in pretty good. Then fine tune. Sent from my MB300 using Tapatalk

this is what I initially thought. I've been comparing my current timing tables, which is advanced quite a bit over the OTS Stage 91 maps, and they're a near-perfect match to the OTS Stage2 map, save for two or three cells where timing is advanced an extra .5 degrees.

I'll be comparing my current tables to the OTS ones, and if they're close enough, I'll move the corresponding tables over to the Stage2 map. The only tables I'm unsure about are the fueling tables (not sure how my current tables will react to the new DP), and boost targets (the OTS map was meant for a FMIC, not the TMIC). I think I'll try richening up my WOT AFRs by .2, and stick with the OTS WGDC and Boost Targets and see how the car likes it, and adjust accordingly.

[bewsted]

Originally Posted by f-castrillo this is what I initially thought. I've been comparing my current timing tables, which is advanced quite a bit over the OTS Stage 91 maps, and they're a near-perfect match to the OTS Stage2 map, save for two or three cells where timing is advanced an extra .5 degrees. I'll be comparing my current tables to the OTS ones, and if they're close enough, I'll move the corresponding tables over to the Stage2 map. The only tables I'm unsure about are the fueling tables (not sure how my current tables will react to the new DP), and boost targets (the OTS map was meant for a FMIC, not the TMIC). I think I'll try richening up my WOT AFRs by .2, and stick with the OTS WGDC and Boost Targets and see how the car likes it, and adjust accordingly.

They aren't going to change enough that you should worry. Just install the DP and take a ride you will be good man.

[wolly6973]

Yeah, from the sounds of it, you probably haven't changed the timing too much from OTS, so just leave it.

It's a different story if you are close to the ragged edge.

[rfinkle2]

Originally Posted by f-castrillo this is what I initially thought. I've been comparing my current timing tables, which is advanced quite a bit over the OTS Stage 91 maps, and they're a near-perfect match to the OTS Stage2 map, save for two or three cells where timing is advanced an extra .5 degrees. I'll be comparing my current tables to the OTS ones, and if they're close enough, I'll move the corresponding tables over to the Stage2 map. The only tables I'm unsure about are the fueling tables (not sure how my current tables will react to the new DP), and boost targets (the OTS map was meant for a FMIC, not the TMIC). I think I'll try richening up my WOT AFRs by .2, and stick with the OTS WGDC and Boost Targets and see how the car likes it, and adjust accordingly.

Bluestreak and ATVfreek always give great advice, but I can tell you from just installing a downpipe about a month ago, that there isn't much that is going to change.

Fueling will absolutely be fine, and if you want to remain ultra-safe, use the ideas that Bluestreak and atvfreek recommended.

You can always have a look @ initial logs, and if the car is happy, paste your ignition tables over after a couple of logs.

[BlueStreak]

Whenever I give advice, its always from a safety standpoint.

That being said, I am tuned for meth running quite a bit of boost and a ton of timing (16 degrees so far). If meth ever stops, you'll be seeing a thread on how my shit blew up

[atvfreek]

The biggest issue is Stage 1 wgdc is way too high around 4k rpm for a downpipe. It will most likely overboost, but other tables will bring it back down causing an oscillating boost curve. Not sure what your timing tables look like, but from my own experiences it was easier to start fresh. (But I'm no pro either)

Everyone has their own strategies to getting shit dialed in. There is only one way to see if your car likes the map..... Load it and take it for a spin!

[f-castrillo]

DP installed, pulls MUCH harder, tested it all out after the install. First drive after the install was a bunch of WOT pulls. No CEL, calc. load was 1.9-2.1 for the majority of the pull(s), and MAF g/s topped out at 260 g/s. There was smoking from all the PB Blaster at first, but it eventually dwindled down.

An hour later, I went for an easy 5 minute drive to Jack in the Box, and CEL P0134 and P0139 came on. Cleared it, shut the car off, ate for 30 mins, and drove 25 mins to work at an easy pace, no CELs came on. However, what worries me a little is the meanings of the CELs I had gotten earlier...

Also, my "Actual AFR" readout is locked to 14.7, regardless of driving conditions. It doesn't matter if I'm going WOT, part throttle, coasting to a stop, the readout always reads 14.7. I monitored KR for most of the trip to work, and there wasn't anything out of the ordinary, and my WOT pulls from the first drive didn't show any excessive KR. I hope my O2 sensors are ok

I guess I have some reading to do about the CEL codes I got, and try to figure out why my AP's Actual AFR readout is a constant 14.7...

[wolly6973]

Probably an issue with different versions of AP firmware, ATR, & maps.

That is the usual problem with those types of issues.