Gen 2 Cobb ATR discussion

[bewsted]

Reflash your map to your AP.

Then double check that you have your o2 sensors plugged in....As in they have clicked.

Does the ap function as normal besides the AFR reading?

I wouldn't do anymore WOT till you get that working.

Originally Posted by BlueStreak Whenever I give advice, its always from a safety standpoint. That being said, I am tuned for meth running quite a bit of boost and a ton of timing (16 degrees so far). If meth ever stops, you'll be seeing a thread on how my shit blew up

e85 waa waa?

[f-castrillo]

Originally Posted by wolly6973 Probably an issue with different versions of AP firmware, ATR, & maps. That is the usual problem with those types of issues.

Originally Posted by bewsted Reflash your map to your AP. Then double check that you have your o2 sensors plugged in....As in they have clicked. Does the ap function as normal besides the AFR reading? I wouldn't do anymore WOT till you get that working. e85 waa waa?

The car has already been running maps based on the latest ATR beta software and beta AP firmware, so I don't see how reflashing will help

I will double check my connections, though. Is the O2 sensor easy to mess up? I didn't strip it, but I wonder if all that PB Blaster did something to the sensors. Is it possible to clean them? I also suspect it might be the defouler on the secondary O2 sensor...

[bewsted]

No the defouler wouldn't cause the wideband to readout funny. I ran without a rear o2 for a couple months and never had this sort of issue. Double check your connections.

I dunno bout o2 cleaner

[atvfreek]

Originally Posted by f-castrillo The car has already been running maps based on the latest ATR beta software and beta AP firmware, so I don't see how reflashing will help I will double check my connections, though. Is the O2 sensor easy to mess up? I didn't strip it, but I wonder if all that PB Blaster did something to the sensors. Is it possible to clean them? I also suspect it might be the defouler on the secondary O2 sensor...

The defouler will cause those secondary O2 codes. You need the second sensor directly in the exhaust steam. My downpipe came with a built in defouler so I had to weld another bung directly in the exhaust stream. If you can take the defouler out, that would be the easiest way. There is a thread I can link you to in a little bit.

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[atvfreek]

Here it is.
Genpu w/UR downpipe and P0139

[f-castrillo]

Originally Posted by atvfreek Here it is. Genpu w/UR downpipe and P0139

Thanks, I'll give it a read. But when I was doing my initial research on what DP to get, I ran across something saying that the secondary O2 needed the defouler or the ECU would throw an "inneficient cat" code due to the higher flowing cat.

I'm going to jack the car up right now and make sure my primary O2 is ok, though. That, and I'll remove the defouler (it's a screw-on L-adapter) and see if I can at least get rid of some of the trouble codes.

[bewsted]

Originally Posted by atvfreek The defouler will cause those secondary O2 codes. You need the second sensor directly in the exhaust steam. My downpipe came with a built in defouler so I had to weld another bung directly in the exhaust stream. If you can take the defouler out, that would be the easiest way. There is a thread I can link you to in a little bit. Sent from my MB300 using Tapatalk

I wasn't talking about the codes...I was talking about the AFR sticking at 14.7.

You do want the o2 in the stream though....

You will get the pre cat warm cel....Which you can turn off in atr....

[f-castrillo]

Originally Posted by bewsted I wasn't talking about the codes...I was talking about the AFR sticking at 14.7. You do want the o2 in the stream though.... You will get the pre cat warm cel....Which you can turn off in atr....

The defouler is on the secondary O2 sensor, which is just there to see whether or not the catalytic converter is doing its job.

The AFRs holding at 14.7... I hope my primary O2 sensor is ok.

I want to disable the least amount of CELs possible, for emissions purposes in the future. Has anyone had trouble with re-enabling the P0101 code in ATR? The OTS maps (stage 1 and 2) have it disabled by default, but it seems that it will only throw the code if your MAF is bad or mis-calibrated.

[rfinkle2]

You can always pm Darryl @ UR.

He is ultra helpful if you can't get things figured out.

FWIW, I haven't gotten a cel with my UR DP, and I was under the impression that they have fixed all of their latest DP's after there was a cel issue a while ago.

[atvfreek]

If you have a defouler it will literally set a ton of different codes, all related to secondary O2 slow response, no respense,and bank1 sensor 2 lean, Bank1 sensor 2 stuck lean.... The list goes on. These cars use that sensor for a lot more than just a catalyst montitor.

Unfortunatly the only way that I know of to get around it is delete the P0421 code, or take your chances and maybe the cat code won't pop up.

[f-castrillo]

So I went and checked on all my O2 connections...

The black harness for the primary O2 was unclipped . Plugged the sensor harness in, and now my primary O2 and AFR problems should be solved lol.

I removed the defouler from the second O2 sensor and plugged the O2 sensor straight into the bung. I'll leave the P0421 DTC disabled, as is by default, and hopefully that will all that needs to be fixed.

Thanks for the helpful info guys. Sorry for the partial-thread derail lol.

[bewsted]

Your lucky yoour shit didnt deceide to pop on you.....that means you were running with no fueling adjustments whatsoever unless you knock lol

[f-castrillo]

Originally Posted by bewsted Your lucky yoour shit didnt deceide to pop on you.....that means you were running with no fueling adjustments whatsoever unless you knock lol

Yeah I monitored KR most of the time, and decided to look at the other live parameters to see how they were holding up. The ffirst one I looked at was AFRs, and when I saw it wasn't changing, I went low throttle the rest of the drive to work and back. KR was non existent though, I presume the ECU is capable of calculating AFRs by other methods. I had minimal KR during the two WOT runs I did, thank God!

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[f-castrillo]

Got my first batch of Stage2 datalogs finally, now with the O2 sensor problems out of the way lol. Here's a 3rd gear and 4th gear WOT pull from earlier tonight. There's a hefty amount of KR from 4800 to redline. I'm trying to decide whether or not I want to pull timing (probably 1 to 1.5 degrees in the affected load points and up), or run richer AFRs in the upper RPMs. What would be the more effective solution?

BTW, I adjusted my Knock Offset tables from 5500-RL to slightly higher value to rule out false KR/engine noise from the stiffer RMM. The fact that I'm still getting bad amounts of KR up high signifies that I do have some real knocking problems. Damn pump 91 gas in Cali.

A snapshot of my WOT fueling tables is also attached, for reference.

This was done at 60F ambient temps at night.

[bewsted]

I see no log LOL.

[f-castrillo]

Originally Posted by bewsted I see no log LOL.

Holy shit, good find lol. Here's the two logs...really, this time.

[bewsted]

I see 2 things going on here...

1st of all your getting some real knock from something....Check your Shroud on TMIC and check for anything else flopping around.

Did you regap your plugs when installing them? Maybe your getting knock from this if not.

Also I think your maf cal from 80 maf g/s up could use a 1.02 to clean up that WOT LTFT your getting.

[f-castrillo]

I checked my plugs for proper gap, and they were all a .028" upon install. The shroud on the TMIC is held down as tight as I'm comfortable with (read: fairly tight), any more and the trim on the shroud will eat into the fins. I guess there's been a fitment problem with everyone's Corksport TMIC and the stock shroud. I don't think it would be causing the knock, but I could remove the shroud for a day and see how the car fares.

I'll get around to the MAF cal sometime, although I copied my last Stage1 MAF cal over. Did the installation of a new downpipe necessitate a new MAF cal? Or does the improved exhaust flow not affect the calibrations?

[Bucker]

@bewsted

FYI, here is a log. I added a bit more timing from the table you shared with me so I do have a bit of minor KR but I am fine with that. After 10 hours of driving yesterday (HARD DRIVING) on the tail of the dragon and a few races I got no more than 1.5 KR and it ran great.

[bewsted]

Any mod you add can cause your maf cal to change a hair....

Originally Posted by Bucker @bewsted FYI, here is a log. I added a bit more timing from the table you shared with me so I do have a bit of minor KR but I am fine with that. After 10 hours of driving yesterday (HARD DRIVING) on the tail of the dragon and a few races I got no more than 1.5 KR and it ran great.

Looks pretty good man.....Still odd your maxing out WGDC @ 5200 rpms and only 16.5 psi

[Bucker]

Originally Posted by bewsted Any mod you add can cause your maf cal to change a hair.... Looks pretty good man.....Still odd your maxing out WGDC @ 5200 rpms and only 16.5 psi

Yeah, I think my turbo is a turd lol. I did get to run a similarly modded gen1 with a perm tune and we were pretty damn close. He pulled me by a little bit but he started in 3rd and I was in 4th. That tells me everything is normal and its running strong. Fuck the g/s and load #'s they don't seem to tell the whole story.

[WillyH]

Originally Posted by f-castrillo Got my first batch of Stage2 datalogs finally, now with the O2 sensor problems out of the way lol. Here's a 3rd gear and 4th gear WOT pull from earlier tonight. There's a hefty amount of KR from 4800 to redline. I'm trying to decide whether or not I want to pull timing (probably 1 to 1.5 degrees in the affected load points and up), or run richer AFRs in the upper RPMs. What would be the more effective solution? BTW, I adjusted my Knock Offset tables from 5500-RL to slightly higher value to rule out false KR/engine noise from the stiffer RMM. The fact that I'm still getting bad amounts of KR up high signifies that I do have some real knocking problems. Damn pump 91 gas in Cali. A snapshot of my WOT fueling tables is also attached, for reference. This was done at 60F ambient temps at night.

Hey f-castrillo,

Because you are running 91 octane gas, you should decrease your AFR's to run more rich. This will keep your pistons and cyclinders cooler and prevent/reduce detonation. This will also result in a lower power loss compared to reducing timing. I would also recommend getting a DO stage 2 water/meth kit, which will allow you to run higher AFR's and increase timing safely without detonation/knock.

I am running 91 gas (max i can get here in Canada), and my AFR's are 11.3. When I do have KR, it is always less than 0.5%.

Installing my kit next week and will be running 11.8 AFR's eventually w/ increased timing.

Willy.

[f-castrillo]

Originally Posted by WillyH Hey f-castrillo, Because you are running 91 octane gas, you should decrease your AFR's to run more rich. This will keep your pistons and cyclinders cooler and prevent/reduce detonation. This will also result in a lower power loss compared to reducing timing. I would also recommend getting a DO stage 2 water/meth kit, which will allow you to run higher AFR's and increase timing safely without detonation/knock. I am running 91 gas (max i can get here in Canada), and my AFR's are 11.3. When I do have KR, it is always less than 0.5%. Installing my kit next week and will be running 11.8 AFR's eventually w/ increased timing. Willy.

Thanks for the insight. Before installing the new downpipe, I was getting away with less than 2 counts of knock in higher RPMs on the current timing and fuel tables. I may have to richen up my AFRs up top a little, that or pull timing from 5000 RPM and up, or a combination of both.

I'm gonna redo my MAF cal and check for any excess movement of the TMIC shroud to eliminate any potential problems. I re-torqued my JBR rear motor mount to install specs yesterday, so that may be a cause for more KR as well.

[f-castrillo]

So it's been a few days running on my latest map, and after an earnest attempt at hypermiling this tank of gas, I got the urge to do a 3rd and 4th gear WOT pull to see how the map was holding up.

This map still uses the same old timing and fuel tables, but the MAF tables were re-calibrated. They were off only by 3% at the most, but I redid the calibration anyway, though I'm probably chasing my tail at this point.

I wanted to see if the KR I saw last week was just as bad/better/worse in slightly warmer ambient temps (75F). KR looks more or less the same. I think I may end up following through with the plan of pulling 1.5 degrees of timing or so from 4500 or 5000 to redline. I'm just in denial of it all, since the logs show I'm flowing ~250 g/s, and I'm worried that pulling timing will significantly lower that number

Anyways, I guess it was expected. These timing tables ran great when I was targeting 17-18psi, but I guess it's asking a bit much now that I'm targeting 18-19 psi.

[atvfreek]

Originally Posted by f-castrillo So it's been a few days running on my latest map, and after an earnest attempt at hypermiling this tank of gas, I got the urge to do a 3rd and 4th gear WOT pull to see how the map was holding up. This map still uses the same old timing and fuel tables, but the MAF tables were re-calibrated. They were off only by 3% at the most, but I redid the calibration anyway, though I'm probably chasing my tail at this point. I wanted to see if the KR I saw last week was just as bad/better/worse in slightly warmer ambient temps (75F). KR looks more or less the same. I think I may end up following through with the plan of pulling 1.5 degrees of timing or so from 4500 or 5000 to redline. I'm just in denial of it all, since the logs show I'm flowing ~250 g/s, and I'm worried that pulling timing will significantly lower that number Anyways, I guess it was expected. These timing tables ran great when I was targeting 17-18psi, but I guess it's asking a bit much now that I'm targeting 18-19 psi.

That's a lot of kr in the higher rpms. Are you on 91 pump gas? If so, you may need to richen it up a little, as well as remove timing.

[f-castrillo]

Originally Posted by atvfreek That's a lot of kr in the higher rpms. Are you on 91 pump gas? If so, you may need to richen it up a little, as well as remove timing.

Yep, good old California 91 pump gas. My WOT/OL fuel targets are as follows:

500-4000 RPM: 11.8
4500-6000 RPM: 11.6
6500 RPM: 11.4
7000 RPM: 11.1

I'm thinking of lowering my 4500-RL fueling targets to 11.3. If I still get terrible KR, then I'll probably start pulling timing. Good strategy? I've read some people are running 12:1-12.5 AFRs, I wish our fuel qualities here would let me do that lol.

[atvfreek]

Ya you can try that first. Whats your timing at, it's not logged in those datalogs.

[f-castrillo]

Originally Posted by atvfreek Ya you can try that first. Whats your timing at, it's not logged in those datalogs.

I attached my tables from the datalogged map (v202), and the map I have yet to test (v203). I decided to stay at my current AFRs and pull timing from 1.5 to 2.5 degrees in the affected areas. If KR still stays the same, given the same run conditions as earlier (similar ambient temp and road), then I could safely assume there's a loose screw that needs tightening somewhere.

I'm going to test with the v203 map tonight on the way to work, hopefully ambient temps are close to what I saw earlier this afternoon.

[Teal]

Pull timing. My timing is lower than yours and I'm on high quality 93octane. I am going to start making some adjustments but I would rather lose the knock and a couple HP rather than knock like crazy.

[Dano]

Originally Posted by f-castrillo Yep, good old California 91 pump gas. My WOT/OL fuel targets are as follows: 500-4000 RPM: 11.8 4500-6000 RPM: 11.6 6500 RPM: 11.4 7000 RPM: 11.1 I'm thinking of lowering my 4500-RL fueling targets to 11.3. If I still get terrible KR, then I'll probably start pulling timing. Good strategy? I've read some people are running 12:1-12.5 AFRs, I wish our fuel qualities here would let me do that lol.

Did you know that too rich AF will actually cause knock?

For me, I'd pull timing and run 11.8 AF across the board

Time for WMI

Also, don't know if you have performed the checks to see if the KR is real above 5.7K. Add octane or pull timing to see if it goes away. If not its false and you can change the sensor offset.

[f-castrillo]

Originally Posted by Dano2010 Did you know that too rich AF will actually cause knock? For me, I'd pull timing and run 11.8 AF across the board Time for WMI Also, don't know if you have performed the checks to see if the KR is real above 5.7K. Add octane or pull timing to see if it goes away. If not its false and you can change the sensor offset.

I think most of my KR is real, as it varies with ambient temps. Some octane booster test I did a few months ago also showed a significant reduction in knock reports. I have, however, bumped up the offset tables a tad, since the JBR RMM may be exaggerating engine noise a little bit.

I looked at the logs from last night's WOT pulls on the way to work, and found I had to pull another 1 degree at 5000, and 1.5 degrees by 6500. I've also done as you suggested and will run 11.8 AF all the way. I'll run the car later this afternoon with the revised ignition timing and fueling tables and see what happens.

As for WMI, I want to push the car as far as it will reliably go without meth. My original goal was to make more power, but not max power, and I know that by avoiding WMI, I'm leaving quite a bit on the table. Still, the mod/power bug will bite eventually, and I'll may change my stance on WMI later.

[rfinkle2]

Originally Posted by f-castrillo I think most of my KR is real, as it varies with ambient temps. Some octane booster test I did a few months ago also showed a significant reduction in knock reports. I have, however, bumped up the offset tables a tad, since the JBR RMM may be exaggerating engine noise a little bit. I looked at the logs from last night's WOT pulls on the way to work, and found I had to pull another 1 degree at 5000, and 1.5 degrees by 6500. I've also done as you suggested and will run 11.8 AF all the way. I'll run the car later this afternoon with the revised ignition timing and fueling tables and see what happens. As for WMI, I want to push the car as far as it will reliably go without meth. My original goal was to make more power, but not max power, and I know that by avoiding WMI, I'm leaving quite a bit on the table. Still, the mod/power bug will bite eventually, and I'll may change my stance on WMI later.

Just for the hell of it, I've found the more conservative Ign BAT vs ECT Comp. A-B (i.e. pulls more timing) to work well pasted into both tables.

It may/may not help your map, but it seems to have controlled the small bits of kr, when pulling away from a stop light etc. in my car.

[f-castrillo]

Originally Posted by rfinkle2 Just for the hell of it, I've found the more conservative Ign BAT vs ECT Comp. A-B (i.e. pulls more timing) to work well pasted into both tables. It may/may not help your map, but it seems to have controlled the small bits of kr, when pulling away from a stop light etc. in my car.

Thanks, but I've already gone and modified the Ign BAT vs ECT comp tables a few weeks back. I took the more conservative table and raised the values even more (they are subtractive values), and pasted it so that A and B tables were the same.

[Dano]

Originally Posted by f-castrillo I think most of my KR is real, as it varies with ambient temps. Some octane booster test I did a few months ago also showed a significant reduction in knock reports. I have, however, bumped up the offset tables a tad, since the JBR RMM may be exaggerating engine noise a little bit. I looked at the logs from last night's WOT pulls on the way to work, and found I had to pull another 1 degree at 5000, and 1.5 degrees by 6500. I've also done as you suggested and will run 11.8 AF all the way. I'll run the car later this afternoon with the revised ignition timing and fueling tables and see what happens. As for WMI, I want to push the car as far as it will reliably go without meth. My original goal was to make more power, but not max power, and I know that by avoiding WMI, I'm leaving quite a bit on the table. Still, the mod/power bug will bite eventually, and I'll may change my stance on WMI later.

Roger that

You will of course need to pull more ign advance to run the leaner AFR up top. Just see how it reacts first and watch KR while logging.

Once u go meth u can't go back so make sure you want it.


Tappin

[f-castrillo]

How have you guys been tweaking the higher load sections of the Max Ign A/B tables? Did you match it to the High throttle/OL tables, or did you make the Max tables a little more advanced than the High Throttle/OL tables to allow the ECU to advance timing further in cooler temps?

[Bucker]

Originally Posted by f-castrillo How have you guys been tweaking the higher load sections of the Max Ign A/B tables? Did you match it to the High throttle/OL tables, or did you make the Max tables a little more advanced than the High Throttle/OL tables to allow the ECU to advance timing further in cooler temps?

My Max Ign tables are OTS values which are much higher than my high throttle table.

[atvfreek]

Originally Posted by Bucker My Max Ign tables are OTS values which are much higher than my high throttle table.

I also left my max ign tables OTS

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[Bucker]

@bewsted

I got my ITV22s in today. I am about to go log a new run with slightly advanced timing over the table you shared. Will report back later!

[f-castrillo]

I've been matching the Max Ign tables to my High Throttle table, so that the ECU wouldn't try to advance timing too much in warmer weather, thereby preventing knock in hot temps, while maintaining decent power output in cooler weather

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[bewsted]

Originally Posted by Bucker @bewsted I got my ITV22s in today. I am about to go log a new run with slightly advanced timing over the table you shared. Will report back later!

Tuned in for results son!