Gen 2 Cobb ATR discussion

[phate]

Well, if you are spraying a constant amount of meth, then of course your AFR shift will decrease with RPM. You must scale the amount sprayed by change in airflow in order to maintain the AFR shift. From the meth kits I have seen, they are only variable based on boost pressure.

[BlueStreak]

Originally Posted by phate Well, if you are spraying a constant amount of meth, then of course your AFR shift will decrease with RPM. You must scale the amount sprayed by change in airflow in order to maintain the AFR shift. From the meth kits I have seen, they are only variable based on boost pressure.

Agreed. Even so, by the time you hit redline, you are presumably flowing as much as your setup can. With 12GPH, my setup doesn't make a dent in AFRs by 6700RPM.

[rfinkle2]

@BlueStreak...

I totally agree with the above. With the D07 and a 50/50 mix, I see no afr shift whatsoever.

I will be spraying 100% meth with a D05 first, and then if necessary, move up to a D07.

It almost seems that the manufacturers of the kits are covering there asses when suggesting nozzle size and overall mixture.

I have seen many people spray with large nozzles, and see no afr shift.

The only guys that I see with any appreciable afr shift and drop in bat's (below intake temp) are spraying 100% meth with a D07 or greater.

In short, agreed with the above (how can anyone argue with datalogs lol), but it seems to achieve the tuning method that the manufacturers recommend, one would need to spray 100% meth with a much larger nozzle than specified in the recommended nozzle / horespower charts.

[phate]

In order to maintain the AFR shift, you would need to control based on MAF voltage, not pressure. You would also need to spray a ton of meth since the stoich ratio is so much richer than gas.

[BlueStreak]

I hear you, phate. You still require enough flow (i.e. nozzle size) in the system to keep spraying an increasing volume of meth to match the increased airflow.

[rfinkle2]

Originally Posted by phate In order to maintain the AFR shift, you would need to control based on MAF voltage, not pressure. You would also need to spray a ton of meth since the stoich ratio is so much richer than gas.

I believe that is why cld12pk2go prefers maf based controllers vs. map.

He and Abilor put a meth tune together for Abilors car spraying 100% meth w/ a D07 nozzle, and I am pretty sure they were able to keep a constant afr shift to redline, but I am going from memory of the logs.

TBH, I wish I had done a bit more research before buying my kit, and may eventually convert to an maf based controller.

I have already had to spend a ton of additional $ on my DO kit, from bungs, nozzles etc.

The only thing that I'm using from the DO stage 2 kit at the moment is the pump and controller.

My nozzles are now Snow, as well as the bung itself and nozzle holder.

I would've purchased a Labonte kit, but believe the Tsunami put a cramp in his supply chain, and effectively put him out of business.

[BlueStreak]

Agreed. MAF based or IPW based is far superior to MAP based for controlling meth spray.

EDIT: Actually, I have successfully converted my MAP based controller to MAF based but I find its a tad risky. I'll post a write up on it and will outline the risks involved if poop hits the fan.

[Dano]

MAF FTW...I have MAP and wish I had MAF.

once the spray is started and levels out MAP works great but you go rich when the spray first starts if you are using a honking nozzle. If you base off of MAF you can scale the MAF right at the trigger point which will never change, so you stay at target AF.

MAP based trigger can be at different MAF voltages so it doesn't work as well.

Coolingmist has the coolest controller. its a digital boost gauge/controller/flow meter. [52mm] I believe it is can be either MAP or MAF.

something like a CMG2 pro

[f-castrillo]

Thanks for all the info, guys. About making a safer meth tune, wouldn't a mechanical failsafe solve our worries here? aka nozzle stops spraying, failsafe cuts boost to spring pressure, meanwhile there's probably been a few counts of KR, and AFRs are richened and/or timing is automatically pulled?

On that note, do such failsafes exist for MAF-based WMI setups?

[rfinkle2]

Originally Posted by f-castrillo Thanks for all the info, guys. About making a safer meth tune, wouldn't a mechanical failsafe solve our worries here? aka nozzle stops spraying, failsafe cuts boost to spring pressure, meanwhile there's probably been a few counts of KR, and AFRs are richened and/or timing is automatically pulled? On that note, do such failsafes exist for MAF-based WMI setups?

Absolutely.

Snow Performance comes to mind:

Snow Performance: SafeInjection? Wastegate Solenoid

[Dano]

Mechanical FS sols don't work that great. They slow spool time by allowing boost pressure to act on the WG Until the flow sensor detects enough flow.

Snow does have one that connects to your EBC wiring which may work better.

So your FS controller is set to say 350ml/hr which is your max flow rate.

Well when flow starts it is not at max rate yet so pressure goes to the WG until you reach that flow rate

If you lower the set point enough you get the opposite and the controller detects an overflow condition and again trips the sol.

That has been my experience with the labonte equipment

When shopping for WMI FS controllers be careful as only a few support 100% meth. Coolingmist does not support it on their normal controller but do on their auto learning FS controller.


Tappin

[f-castrillo]

Thanks, I guess I have quite a bit more research to do before diving into the meth pool. I'm still trying to wrap my head around how to set up a meth kit that would net me some extra power, while remaining reasonable enough so that if the kit were to fail, that my engine wouldn't epic fail afterwards.

[Dano]

That's easy...I can help you out and how I run my WMI. If it fails I will only be .2 leaner than target and if KR does show up the ECU will add fuel and pull timing to quell it. I also have conservative timing. My FS is actually just lights in my dash which you can see in my WMI thread. I removed the actual FS solenoid months ago.

When you get into trouble is when you completely rely on WMI with a very aggressively lean target AF and aggressive timing.

so you can have a DD map that won't blow the motor up if WMI fails and if you want some killer dyno plot make another "ragged edge" map.

Originally Posted by rfinkle2 Absolutely. Snow Performance comes to mind: Snow Performance: SafeInjection? Wastegate Solenoid

I would actually like to try their FS boost cut controller that interrupts the electrical signal to an EBC. It probably reacts much faster than a mechanical one but then again you would need to run the OE BC or any aftermarket EBC. MBC would still need a mechanical boost cut device.

[rfinkle2]

rpm comp A and B tables (beta ATR) explained here:

http://www.mazdaspeedforum.org/forum/foru...ml#post1009814

[dachtler]

I received notification in AP Manager today that new firmware is available for the AP: 1.6.4.2-2553, and it comes with V200 maps. It references a new build of ATR: 1.8.6.0-2517. However, my version of ATR still shows 1760 as the most recent released ATR build, and 2212 as the most recent beta build. Has anyone else been able to download the new 2517 build of ATR yet?

[mrmonk7663]

My AP also shows update available...ATR shows nothing. So basically this update will not work with the current Beta ATR correct? Also, per release notes, the update doesn't seem to be anything different than the current beta tables...so no real need to update for those running beta correct?

[Bucker]

DONT DO IT! I updated my AP a couple hours ago, went to flash a new map and it froze. My fucking ECU is bricked and I am 100 miles from fucking home. UGH! I left COBB a voicemail and shit but avoid this for now.

[Dano]

fuck I was afraid of that...the AP FW release notes specify a newer ATR version. Why would they release the FW before ATR????

[mrmonk7663]

Shit, thanks for letting us know. That sucks man I hope it gets fixed.

[Dano]

Just uncheck Beta in atr then u can update both atr and ap then have a happy day.

Dont forget to resave existing maps.

Tappin

[mrmonk7663]

But what is the point in us updating if we have the beta already? IT looks like nothing changed from current beta to the new non beta...seems like they just updated non beta to what us beta guys are running?

[Bucker]

Originally Posted by Dano Just uncheck Beta in atr then u can update both atr and ap then have a happy day. Dint forget to resave existing maps. Tappin

Yeah, that was my error... working with Cobb now to make it work again haha.

[f-castrillo]

Originally Posted by Dano That's easy...I can help you out and how I run my WMI. If it fails I will only be .2 leaner than target and if KR does show up the ECU will add fuel and pull timing to quell it. I also have conservative timing. My FS is actually just lights in my dash which you can see in my WMI thread. I removed the actual FS solenoid months ago.

PM in progress. I'm taking you up on your offer to help lol

[rfinkle2]

new version of ATR helpfile here:

http://www.accessecu.com/support/doc...MAZDASPEED.pdf

[dachtler]

Originally Posted by Bucker DONT DO IT! I updated my AP a couple hours ago, went to flash a new map and it froze. My fucking ECU is bricked and I am 100 miles from fucking home. UGH! I left COBB a voicemail and shit but avoid this for now.

Did you flash an OTS map, or a custom one? I was able to flash a stage 1 OTS map just fine with the new firmware. Maybe I just got lucky?

[Bucker]

Ok, I have talked to Cobb. It wasn't the update, it was coincidental that my ECU got bricked when it did. I was just unlucky. They said they have seen "a few" have this happen, but it is not very widespread.

[dachtler]

Originally Posted by Dano Just uncheck Beta in atr then u can update both atr and ap then have a happy day. Dont forget to resave existing maps. Tappin

Yeah, that works now. Wasn't yesterday morning. Anyone know if there have been any changes since the beta? I'm guessing there may have been some bug fixes and improvements in the last 1.5 months.

[rfinkle2]

Originally Posted by dachtler Yeah, that works now. Wasn't yesterday morning. Anyone know if there have been any changes since the beta? I'm guessing there may have been some bug fixes and improvements in the last 1.5 months.

Good to see you Dachtler!

Answer to your q. here:

http://www.mazdaspeedforum.org/forum/foru...-lc-ffs-90471/

[f-castrillo]

Nice hefty update there, COBB! I wonder what use the new clutch in/out related tables are to us stock K04 guys, it seems like it'd only be really useful to people running BT. I'll probably just keep my current map as is, until the meth kit comes in, then I'll start tuning with the newest ATR and firmware.

[f-castrillo]

For anyone that's installed a PMM (JBR or otherwise) after a RMM:

Did you find you had to up the KR offset tables even more from when you first installed your RMM? I know the RMM was causing some false reports of knock, does the PMM require some KR offset changes as well?

Sent from my Thunderbolt (Tapatalk)

[Bucker]

Originally Posted by f-castrillo For anyone that's installed a PMM (JBR or otherwise) after a RMM: Did you find you had to up the KR offset tables even more from when you first installed your RMM? I know the RMM was causing some false reports of knock, does the PMM require some KR offset changes as well? Sent from my Thunderbolt (Tapatalk)

Maybe, but it is going to be different for each person. I didnt have to do shit directly related to the RMM, but I might have been lucky. Log and see if there is any difference in your KR reports.

[f-castrillo]

I see, well I haven't heard anything terrible from the engine bay, and the car pulls more or less as expected. I'll probably re-evaluate my map once I rent a dyno for my meth tuning session... whenever it comes in lol.

[mrmonk7663]

I know I hear alot more noise with my PMM installed. Not sure if this will translate into kr readings or not. I did not modify my kr tables with my RMM...but I really wouldn't know how to see "real" vs "fake" knock in my logs.

[Dano]

only way to weed out the difference is to substantially increase the octane and see if the KR goes away. If it does it was real, if not the KR is false and you can proceed to tune the offset.

[f-castrillo]

Originally Posted by Dano only way to weed out the difference is to substantially increase the octane and see if the KR goes away. If it does it was real, if not the KR is false and you can proceed to tune the offset.

I guess ill wait for my meth kit then. If, while dyno tuning while spraying, KR doesn't decrease from non-meth levels, ill bump the offset tables some

Has anybody bothered with the new clutch in/out ignition timing tables? I'm not too sure if they'll be useful for us that still have the stock K04


Sent from my Thunderbolt (Tapatalk)

[Dano]

haven't messed with the new clutch in/out tables but they could be beneficial for any car, not just BT. There are situations when the ECU will get confused after a FFS and even on a normal shift and pull timing/add fuel. I think these tables might be what we need to resolve this but haven't had time to test.

My car would def fall on its face after a lift to shift IF I had FFS enabled so it will be an easy test once I get some time. I am talking like -15* advance after a shift LOL

[bewsted]

Originally Posted by mrmonk7663 I know I hear alot more noise with my PMM installed. Not sure if this will translate into kr readings or not. I did not modify my kr tables with my RMM...but I really wouldn't know how to see "real" vs "fake" knock in my logs.

I have all 3 mounts and had to do a bit of tuning on the offsets to clean up some engine noise.

[mrmonk7663]

thanks Dano and Bewsted. I'll log and see what my KR looks like after my PMM and evaluate from there. Any tips on how to modify the offset table?

[rfinkle2]

Originally Posted by mrmonk7663 thanks Dano and Bewsted. I'll log and see what my KR looks like after my PMM and evaluate from there. Any tips on how to modify the offset table?

Hyperlink to post:

http://www.mazdaspeedforum.org/forum/foru...tml#post937730

[bewsted]

@Cobb Tuning

Anyone else triggering cel's that you have turned off after the newest update?