Gen 2 Cobb ATR discussion

[Ziggo]

Oops, thanks for the heads up on the Max load tables. I thought they moved it to something like 4 by default.

As a note, on my Gen 1 I see the weird leaning out just after spool up that wasnt there with my load tune. It only leans to 12 though (target is 11.8) so it doesn't cause any knock or concern me much.

[djuosnteisn]

^^^ part of the reason i'm slowly switching back to load based. Some cars are perfectly normal.... others have weird quirks like that.

If you load target was 12.0, you'd see low to mid 12's in that lean region.

[Ckmazdaspeed3]

Originally Posted by rfinkle2 EDIT: I pm'd him and he said there is no appreciable difference in his opinion with the stock turbo 2 vs. 3 port solenoid.

Ok, so I'm thoroughly confused. Before, when I had the oem, I would hit 100%wgdc somewhere around 5000rpm (though often earlier), and in colder weather... Oh, and my boost would drop to <16. Now, I am hitting higher boost for longer periods of time, holding good boost late in the rpm range and often not even hitting 100%wgdc, and the temperatures are warmer.

So, the only other possibility (if not the three port) would bs that this is a result of raising the req load. Is this correct?

I probably don't understand how it works, but having the ability to hit higher load, does that mean that the wgdc isnt needed as much for a given amount of boost?

[rfinkle2]

Originally Posted by Ckmazdaspeed3 Ok, so I'm thoroughly confused. Before, when I had the oem, I would hit 100%wgdc somewhere around 5000rpm (though often earlier), and in colder weather... Oh, and my boost would drop to <16. Now, I am hitting higher boost for longer periods of time, holding good boost late in the rpm range and often not even hitting 100%wgdc, and the temperatures are warmer. So, the only other possibility (if not the three port) would bs that this is a result of raising the req load. Is this correct? I probably don't understand how it works, but having the ability to hit higher load, does that mean that the wgdc isnt needed as much for a given amount of boost?

Here is my 2 cents. I have seen (on more than one occasion) people who were maxing their bcs (and were concerned about its longevity) successfully utilize the grimmspeed to lower their wgdc.

What does that mean to me? ... If one is concerned about the stock essentially bcs being overloaded , and you now have the grimmspeed dialed in, it is a win / win situation.

And @MicaBlueMS3 .. that is awesome news! We need to get these MS3's cookin'.

This car has great potential.

[Ziggo]

He probably means it doesn't make much of a difference in terms of power. On the K04 the extra boost the 3 port allows doesn't really turn into power since it's offset by the massive amount of heat created.

[djuosnteisn]

The only way i can see a 3 port solenoid improving boost holding capabilities is if the oem unit couldn't adequately bleed away pressure from the actuator. Which would mean that the oem solenoid was more restrictive than the restrictor pill in the boost source.

I'm not saying this isn't the case, just that i think it to be unlikely. One way to find out would be to put a boost gauge on the line to the WG actuator and compare between both the 3 port and 2 port.

When the 2 port oem solenoid is fully open, it's essentially bleeding all the boost pressure away from the actuator, leaving it at or near ambient pressure.

When the 3 port solenoid is full open, the actuator port is directly connected to ambient pressure, and the boost source is blocked (in typical interrupt setup), leaving the actuator at or near ambient pressure.


This assumes that the 2 port solenoid can adequately bleed off said boost pressure, and out flow the restrictor pill in the boost source.

[rfinkle2]

The above 2 points well taken.

I have read of people being concerned with the longevity of the solenoid itself, running @ 100% for long periods of time use the grimmspeed @ much lower duty levels to achieve the same boost results.

I would think it gives the user of the grimmspeed peace of mind if they were concerned about the hardware installed from Mazda in terms of the bcs.

the below quote courtesy of @triple_threat...

"I am running the grimmspeed 3 port on stock turbo. It allowed me to up my boost and run less wgdc to do it. Its very easy to tune it with atr, i would suggest using the new boost based tuning. Start with low values in you wgdc tables and work up from there. Boost as never been smoother for me and my car feels great!"

[Ziggo]

Dj, several people have observed that the 3 ports allow them to hold higher boost targets and reduces WGDC.

I wrote up a long post about this but my theory is that the WGA is being pushed open by excessive manifold pressure and that the combination of the "near" ambient signal (1-3 psi seems reasonable) of the bleed system plus the force on the WGA is overpowering the relatively soft 9psi spring and opening the WG. Thus the truly ambient pressures an interrupt gives you allows the WG to stay closed and build more boost.

A bleed type system is never really zero, it's a percentage of the boost signal determined by a ratio of the orifice of the boost source vs the orifice of the solenoid.

Fuck me it turned into a long post again.

[PapaSmurf]

Ok here is another log after i tweaked my Boost targets again and my WGDC, I figured id put my boost targets back up .25 and lower my WGDC in the respective rpm range down 2*

I only hit 90 WGDC and was practically spot on for my boost targets... can i get an amen?

Im thinking of uping my WGDC 1* and adding another .25 in my boost targets and seeing how that works out.

[djuosnteisn]

Originally Posted by Ziggo A bleed type system is never really zero, it's a percentage of the boost signal determined by a ratio of the orifice of the boost source vs the orifice of the solenoid.

Perfect reasoning


IMO the pressure would actually be more like a voltage divider in electronics...

Source Pressure * [dia of restrictor / (dia of restrictor + dia of solenoid) ]

So for 15 psi boost source, a 0.03" restrictor and a 0.125" solenoid, you'd get 2.5 psi pushing on the actuator.


Makes sense to me.

<------- learned






How many people have had oem solenoids fail from being driven at 99% too much? I have a spare one i'd be willing to hook straight up to 12 volts and try to kill if anyone is interested.

[rfinkle2]

Originally Posted by djuosnteisn Perfect reasoning IMO the pressure would actually be more like a voltage divider in electronics... Source Pressure * [dia of restrictor / (dia of restrictor + dia of solenoid) ] So for 15 psi boost source, a 0.03" restrictor and a 0.125" solenoid, you'd get 2.5 psi pushing on the actuator. Makes sense to me. <------- learned How many people have had oem solenoids fail from being driven at 99% too much? I have a spare one i'd be willing to hook straight up to 12 volts and try to kill if anyone is interested.

I can tell you where the scare tactics come from LOL. The ATR helpfile ( I know, I know) suggests not to run over 95% wastegate duty cycle for the longevity of the boost control solenoid.

BTW, quit it with all of the mathematics. LOL ..J/K.

I understand the raw mechanical aspect pretty well, but the volts and all of that stuff is going to cook my brain solenoid.

Thanks guys for all of the great info.

BTW , @Ziggo, can you re-friend me now? LOL

and @MicaBlueMS3... Amen.

[Ziggo]

Originally Posted by djuosnteisn How many people have had oem solenoids fail from being driven at 99% too much? I have a spare one i'd be willing to hook straight up to 12 volts and try to kill if anyone is interested.

Dunno, but I am activly trying to kill mine. I have a weekend at the track scheduled in 3 weeks, and I bet my solenoid will see as much time at 99-100 as a street driven car will in 2 years. Now that I think about it I probably should order a grimmspeed now and compose a just in case map....

[djuosnteisn]

What's the impedance of our solenoids? Anyone measure one?

I'm gonna take a hard look at mine tonight... then kill it, and then piss on it... then grovel wishing i hadn't killed it, then accept its death.... and then get drunk, and move on with life.

I'll also measure the impedance of my 3 port for comparison sake.

[PapaSmurf]

Originally Posted by Ziggo Dunno, but I am activly trying to kill mine. I have a weekend at the track scheduled in 3 weeks, and I bet my solenoid will see as much time at 99-100 as a street driven car will in 2 years. Now that I think about it I probably should order a grimmspeed now and compose a just in case map....

I went to the track the other day and at the time i was running 100% WGDC from 5500rpm to redline, i did about 10-15 passes and all is fine and dandy.

[rfinkle2]

Originally Posted by MicaBlueMS3 I went to the track the other day and at the time i was running 100% WGDC from 5500rpm to redline, i did about 10-15 passes and all is fine and dandy.

Fwiw, Cobb knows about the ots maps wgdc being maxed. Christian has seen the logs from the gen2 beta testers.

I think that it is more the idea (and I've read DJ tunes this way), when in the higher rpm range, a maxed wgdc most likely = a maxed turbo.

I'd be more concerned with a 100 DC and boost dropping off simultaneously than anything.

[Ziggo]

I am not talking about the drag strip. I will be on a road course, and my car will probably see an hour or more of operation at WOT above 5k

Fink I don't take things personally. There is a quote "In god we trust, all others bring data" and I am an atheist so god better have his shit together. I don't believe anything till I see data, and this is the internet. My data and past experience said the TRL tables don't affect a boost tune.

[djuosnteisn]

Originally Posted by rfinkle2 Fwiw, Cobb know about the ots maps wgdc being maxed. Christian has seen the logs from the gen2 beta testers. I think that it is more the idea (and I've read DJ tunes this way), when in the higher rpm range, a maxed wgdc most likely = a maxed turbo. I'd be more concerned with a 100 DC and boost dropping off simultaneously than anything.

I want to do some back to back comparisons with various WGDC values, looking at BATs, g/s and boost, and get a sense of how "maxed" 100% wgdc actually indicates.

Cause IMO, the difference between 90% and 99% WGDC in terms of turbo performance, probably isn't that much. But i won't tune anyone's car to peg 99's (unless they want me to, or it's only for a small part of a lower gear, high rpm section) until i know:
- it doesn't damage the solenoid
- it doesn't appreciably increase BATs, and
- it actually results in a slight bump of g/s (or at least doesn't appear to hurt g/s).

If the above points are true, then we can all just run 99's all day long without worry (in the mid to upper rpms only of course, to avoid boost spike). I'll start looking into the first bullet tonight, solenoid longevity

[PapaSmurf]

Originally Posted by djuosnteisn I want to do some back to back comparisons with various WGDC values, looking at BATs, g/s and boost, and get a sense of how "maxed" 100% wgdc actually indicates. Cause IMO, the difference between 90% and 99% WGDC in terms of turbo performance, probably isn't that much. But i won't tune anyone's car to peg 99's (unless they want me to, or it's only for a small part of a lower gear, high rpm section) until i know: - it doesn't damage the solenoid - it doesn't appreciably increase BATs, and - it actually results in a slight bump of g/s (or at least doesn't appear to hurt g/s). If the above points are true, then we can all just run 99's all day long without worry (in the mid to upper rpms only of course, to avoid boost spike). I'll start looking into the first bullet tonight, solenoid longevity

waiting on the maps so we can do that comparison we talked about in PM's

[djuosnteisn]

Originally Posted by MicaBlueMS3 waiting on the maps so we can do that comparison we talked about in PM's

Waiting to get off work so PP


Knarflez is coming over on saturday so i can look over his hardware, and if he has time, i'll see if he wants to go out and do some experiments as well, so we can get data on 2 independent cars, in 2 different environments.

[rfinkle2]

Originally Posted by Ziggo I am not talking about the drag strip. I will be on a road course, and my car will probably see an hour or more of operation at WOT above 5k Fink I don't take things personally. There is a quote "In god we trust, all others bring data" and I am an atheist so god better have his shit together. I don't believe anything till I see data, and this is the internet. My data and past experience said the TRL tables don't affect a boost tune.

I took it personally when you un-friended me. LOL

In atheists we trust. (I am more agnostic, but that is another conversation)

I'll just drop it.

@ least now, we have others who have experienced the phenomenon.

[Ziggo]

For me at least, letting the WGDC max out is more about making sure the performance stays high when temperatures are cooler. My targets are too high to reach at 95* ambient and up so it maxes out, but at 75* it pulls hard.

[djuosnteisn]

Originally Posted by Ziggo For me at least, letting the WGDC max out is more about making sure the performance stays high when temperatures are cooler. My targets are too high to reach at 95* ambient and up so it maxes out, but at 75* it pulls hard.

Yup

I just want to make sure there's not ill effects to that practice, cause honestly, it would really simplify things.

And i think alot of people fear the 99's more than they should. So perhaps we can debunk the worries.

[wolly6973]

If the solenoid were to fail, the only ill-effect would be that you would be running spring pressure until you got a new one, correct?

[Ziggo]

Originally Posted by wolly6973 If the solenoid were to fail, the only ill-effect would be that you would be running spring pressure until you got a new one, correct?

Depends on the mode of failure. I wouldn't rule out it getting stuck open.

[PapaSmurf]

there honestly only like $40 brand new anyway, give or take 20 bucks.

[rfinkle2]

Here is more good evidence, if the stock boost control solenoid is a "weak point" (after dj tries to fry his) that the grimmspeed is indeed an upgrade.

First Stage 2+ Datalog

[jwilkins88]

Originally Posted by Ziggo Depends on the mode of failure. I wouldn't rule out it getting stuck open.

Stuck open is better than stuck closed

[Ziggo]

Originally Posted by jwilkins88 Stuck open is better than stuck closed

For an interrupt system sure, for a bleed system it will result in massive boost overruns.

[jwilkins88]

Originally Posted by Ziggo For an interrupt system sure, for a bleed system it will result in massive boost overruns.

Oh yes... I keep forgetting that everyone else is still using the bleed type. Carry on.

[rfinkle2]

For the hell of it, a visual... I know, i'm a dork.

[Todd98SE]

And to clarify to use a 3-port on a stock K04, the restrictor pill in the compressor cover must be removed? Can it be removed with the turbo still in the car?

Is the Perrin or Grimmspeed the preferred 3-port?

[Ziggo]

I don't think the compressor cover has to be removed. I really think it's just plug and play. The grimmspeed even plugs into the stock harness. just reroute the hoses so it interrupts the boost signal, cap off the extra port on the WGA and retune your WGDC targets.

[PapaSmurf]

Originally Posted by rfinkle2 Fwiw, Cobb knows about the ots maps wgdc being maxed. Christian has seen the logs from the gen2 beta testers. I think that it is more the idea (and I've read DJ tunes this way), when in the higher rpm range, a maxed wgdc most likely = a maxed turbo. I'd be more concerned with a 100 DC and boost dropping off simultaneously than anything.

I do not think maxed out WGDC = maxed out turbo. unless your targets are low.

For example: if you look at the OTS map WGDC targets, they are super high compared to what other people tune,(Dano Bluestreak, etc) most people have targets set into the 20's at 5500+ and the OTS map i was running was set to 50! I have since lowered my WGDC targets to 40ish and i am now hitting my boost targets without maxing out my WGDC. Not to mention its only hitting about 80 wgdc.

Ill get some logs once it gets warmer, for some reason it decided to rain and drop about 20 degrees.

[Todd98SE]

Originally Posted by Ziggo I don't think the compressor cover has to be removed. I really think it's just plug and play. The grimmspeed even plugs into the stock harness. just reroute the hoses so it interrupts the boost signal, cap off the extra port on the WGA and retune your WGDC targets.

Thanks, I was slightly confused because Cobb's tuning document says you must remove the restrictor pill to run the 3-port but I rarely see that mentioned in these recent threads.

[rfinkle2]

There is an instructions tab in pdf form for installing their bcs with the bcs in 2 and 3 port mode for both the ms3 and ms6.

GrimmSpeed

Originally Posted by Todd98SE Thanks, I was slightly confused because Cobb's tuning document says you must remove the restrictor pill to run the 3-port but I rarely see that mentioned in these recent threads.

I believe that @Ckmazdaspeed3 has installed his on the stock k04, and checks this thread often.

I think that the restrictor pill is essentially negated with a supplied vacuum cap.

I read the same thing you did and had the same concern.

[Ckmazdaspeed3]

Not sure about the restrictor pill, but I definitely did not mess with it... Just followed the directions... unplug a few hoses and plug in a few new ones.

[rfinkle2]

Originally Posted by Ckmazdaspeed3 Not sure about the restrictor pill, but I definitely did not mess with it... Just followed the directions... unplug a few hoses and plug in a few new ones.

This leads me to believe that you end up capping that port off. I know from opening and looking @ my kit, there is a vacuum cap included, and this must negate the restrictor pill.

[djuosnteisn]

I don't think a pill would necessarily hurt an interrupt mode setup. It would probably work just fine.

[rfinkle2]

Originally Posted by djuosnteisn I don't think a pill would necessarily hurt an interrupt mode setup. It would probably work just fine.

I think that Cobb adopted the ATR file from mostly Subaru documentation, and when they did, they left a specific warning to remove the pill when using as 3 port solenoid.

If Ck hasn't popped, I'd imagine he either capped it off, or you are 100% correct.

When I put mine in, I will be sure to take pics and do a little write-up.

Dougefresh employed a Perrin solenoid here http://www.mazdaspeedforum.org/forum/foru...plicing-58098/

... maybe many of his tips can be adopted to the grimmspeed.

[Ckmazdaspeed3]

Originally Posted by rfinkle2 I think that Cobb adopted the ATR file from mostly Subaru documentation, and when they did, they left a specific warning to remove the pill when using as 3 port solenoid. If Ck hasn't popped, I'd imagine he either capped it off, or you are 100% correct. When I put mine in, I will be sure to take pics and do a little write-up. Dougefresh employed a Perrin solenoid here http://www.mazdaspeedforum.org/forum/foru...plicing-58098/ ... maybe many of his tips can be adopted to the grimmspeed.

Come on dude, I'm swapping turbos in the morning. Don't say shit like that!

And, yes, I capped off the bottom nipple on the acuater.

Oh, and I dynod today! The ex mani and ebcs netted me about 6whp and 5wtq... It's too bad that I can't be sure which resulted in the power gain.

I will post in the dyno section, as well as the ex mani too.