Gen 2 Cobb ATR discussion

[PapaSmurf]

Originally Posted by Ckmazdaspeed3 Come on dude, I'm swapping turbos in the morning. Don't say shit like that! And, yes, I capped off the bottom nipple on the acuater. Oh, and I dynod today! The ex mani and ebcs netted me about 6whp and 5wtq... It's too bad that I can't be sure which resulted in the power gain. I will post in the dyno section, as well as the ex mani too.

thats it? only 6whp and 5wtq for the ex mani?

[Ckmazdaspeed3]

On a Ko4, yep. Although I wanted more of course, it had been mentioned earlier by wiser members not to expect too much.... The gains off of a bigger turbo will of course be greater, but I'm not sure if we are going to take the time to remove, dyno, reinstall, because it's a pita... once the 2871 is on, that is.

Now, I did not manipulate the tune to be more biased. This is ots tune (not designed for ex mani) with manipulation of wgdc, req load (to hit desired boost) and leaned out by like .5 (which I'm told does very little w/o timing). Timing and other more complicated parameters were not touched... who knows, maybe if I had worked with timing and other things before adding the ex mani, it would have had more effect on the redyno after the mani.

I have no idea if adding an ex mani would have given me more room to add power in other areas of the tune???

... sorry for the thread jack.

[Ziggo]

When the flow restriction is the turbo, improving things like the ex mani is not going to make much of a difference.

[rfinkle2]

Originally Posted by Ckmazdaspeed3 Come on dude, I'm swapping turbos in the morning. Don't say shit like that! And, yes, I capped off the bottom nipple on the acuater. Oh, and I dynod today! The ex mani and ebcs netted me about 6whp and 5wtq... It's too bad that I can't be sure which resulted in the power gain. I will post in the dyno section, as well as the ex mani too.

I would never wish that on you, just using you as a working example...

I wish you nothing but the best of luck with your turbo swap.

I am really interested in seeing your new numbers and impressions.

[jwilkins88]

Originally Posted by rfinkle2 I would never wish that on you, just using you as a working example... I wish you nothing but the best of luck with your turbo swap. I am really interested in seeing your new numbers and impressions.

His turbo swap is in good hands

[rfinkle2]

Originally Posted by djuosnteisn Lol, why not just use load based tuning. IMO, i've seen alot of inconsistencies with boost based tuning in the car's i've been tuning. On quite a few, the TRL gear tables were indeed "limiting" the boost, and when set to 3's, all was well. Other cars, like many have said, have had no problems at all. Another thing i've noticed on a few cars is lagging AFRs when initially going wot. They seem to linger around mid 12's before finally hitting target. I've even bumped that portion of the maf curve up twice on guy's map to help get them down faster, but it made no difference. For what it's worth, i've returned to load based tuning, cause honestly, it was never really that difficult for me, and always much much more consistent.

Alright gen2 (and select 2009) guys...
First, I apologize for using the wrong terminology (I should have used "limit" rather than "cap")
(this is not in the interest of saying I told you so, but I feel like this point may be missed by gen2 guys who are using ots values in their throttle req load -x gear tables.)
YOU WILL have an easier time tuning your boost curve if you set the table values to either 2.3 or 3. (depending on your setup and observed calculated load.)

PLEASE LOWER YOUR WGDC TABLES AND TAKE THE NECESSARY PRECAUTIONS WHEN DOING THIS. IT WILL INCREASE YOUR BOOST LEVELS ON MANY CARS.

Some of you have already done this, and others have not. IMO, there is now solid evidence that the throttle requested load x gear values ARE affecting your boost levels if left OTS.

Please hear this out...
Above is a post from arguably THE most respected tuner on the forum.

Below is a collection of posts and data that back this up from the likes of Forzda, Fobio, DJ, Bluestreak etc.
http://www.mazdaspeedforum.org/forum/foru...tml#post817485
Gen 2 Cobb ATR discussion
Gen 2 Cobb ATR discussion
http://www.mazdaspeedforum.org/forum/foru...tml#post820752
http://www.mazdaspeedforum.org/forum/foru...tml#post820330
http://www.mazdaspeedforum.org/forum/foru...tml#post817576
@Ckmazdaspeed3 was able to solve his problems after changing his throttle - req load x gear tables also.

Happy boosting!

[Todd98SE]

Did you go to 2.3 load from 3k-7k in all the gears or just 2-5 or something? What about the high BAT TRL X gear tables, did you keep them OTS?

Thanks,

[wolly6973]

I changed mine from 3rd up. Traction issues in 1 - 2, don't need more power there.
Leave the high BAT tables alone, they are to keep your car safe in hot weather.
If you have some really hot days, you may be able to fine tune those though.

[Todd98SE]

Thanks Wolly, I'm in the east county of San Diego, it can get to 100+ on the worst days in the summer.

[PapaSmurf]

Originally Posted by rfinkle2 Alright gen2 (and select 2009) guys... First, I apologize for using the wrong terminology (I should have used "limit" rather than "cap") (this is not in the interest of saying I told you so, but I feel like this point may be missed by gen2 guys who are using ots values in their throttle req load -x gear tables.) YOU WILL have an easier time tuning your boost curve if you set the table values to either 2.3 or 3. (depending on your setup and observed calculated load.) PLEASE LOWER YOUR WGDC TABLES AND TAKE THE NECESSARY PRECAUTIONS WHEN DOING THIS. IT WILL INCREASE YOUR BOOST LEVELS ON MANY CARS. Some of you have already done this, and others have not. IMO, there is now solid evidence that the throttle requested load x gear values ARE affecting your boost levels if left OTS. Please hear this out... Above is a post from arguably THE most respected tuner on the forum. Below is a collection of posts and data that back this up from the likes of Forzda, Fobio, DJ, Bluestreak etc. http://www.mazdaspeedforum.org/forum/foru...tml#post817485 Gen 2 Cobb ATR discussion Gen 2 Cobb ATR discussion http://www.mazdaspeedforum.org/forum/foru...tml#post820752 http://www.mazdaspeedforum.org/forum/foru...tml#post820330 http://www.mazdaspeedforum.org/forum/foru...tml#post817576 @Ckmazdaspeed3 was able to solve his problems after changing his throttle - req load x gear tables also. [IMG][/IMG] Happy boosting!

I just want to say I have done this and my target boost was spot on, within .5 psi and in some cases exactly what was targeted.

[Ckmazdaspeed3]

Originally Posted by Todd98SE Did you go to 2.3 load from 3k-7k in all the gears or just 2-5 or something? What about the high BAT TRL X gear tables, did you keep them OTS? Thanks,

Yeah, I left one alone for sure. For some reason (and I could just be rememberingtgis wrong (I'm on my phone, or I would check atr)) I think that I raised 2nd gear, which would mean another table was responsible for keeping power to the tarmec, because I'm not having issues w too much power in second.

For all gears that I changed, I raised 3000rpm-6500rpm up to 3. I did not change 7000, but I'm guessing that wouldn't really matter either way.

[PapaSmurf]

i also changed 2-6 from 3000 rpm on.

I should have some logs tonight sometime, i still think im going to have to tweak my WGDC a little. Maybe ill get lucky with my first revision. haha

[rfinkle2]

If you change all to the same values, you can get your boost dialed in perfect.

changing those values will allow you to have an easier time hitting targets.

@Nataphen has used the APP translation to then limit his boost per gear.

[PapaSmurf]

Originally Posted by rfinkle2 If you change all to the same values, you can get your boost dialed in perfect. changing those values will allow you to have an easier time hitting targets. @Nataphen has used the APP translation to then limit his boost per gear.

your talking about WGDC right?

This I know ive only tweaked 5500 rpm up since it was targeting 50 from the OTS map, I now have it down to 40 and slowly decreasing with less throttle position. I think i might need to lower it some more, but well see.

[rfinkle2]

Originally Posted by MicaBlueMS3 your talking about WGDC right? This I know ive only tweaked 5500 rpm up since it was targeting 50 from the OTS map, I now have it down to 40 and slowly decreasing with less throttle position. I think i might need to lower it some more, but well see.

No lol. First, I would change all of your Throttle - load x gear tables to the same.

Then, I would get your boost dialed in 3rd and 4th gear.

After that I would use the APP translation tables to limit boost in first and second gear (if you choose).

[Nataphen]

Make sure that your CL max throttle is a little lower than what you set your APP to in 1-2, or your car will never enter OL fueling and you will be very rich. Also make sure that your AFR targets are where you want them in those ranges.

[rfinkle2]

Originally Posted by Nataphen Make sure that your CL max throttle is a little lower than what you set your APP to in 1-2, or your car will never enter OL fueling and you will be very rich. Also make sure that your AFR targets are where you want them in those ranges.

Nate, how do you have your first and 2nd gear app tables set up?

[Nataphen]

I'm not at that point now because I sort of started over on my tune. I tried 50 max for 1st and 75 max for 2nd. I went from right at 20psi max to ~14 in 1st and ~17 in 2nd. I wanted to play with it some more, but I switched focus. At the drag strip, I'd probably go 100% in 2nd because I did fairly well with traction there. For the street, I may go even lower than 75% in 2nd.

[rfinkle2]

Originally Posted by Nataphen I'm not at that point now because I sort of started over on my tune. I tried 50 max for 1st and 75 max for 2nd. I went from right at 20psi max to ~14 in 1st and ~17 in 2nd. I wanted to play with it some more, but I switched focus. At the drag strip, I'd probably go 100% in 2nd because I did fairly well with traction there. For the street, I may go even lower than 75% in 2nd.

I there any relationship between the boost targets table throttle positions axis and the throttle position you chose to set your max values @?

[Nataphen]

The only thing that I know for sure so far is that the CL max throttle has to be set right. I'll post up when I start to mess with it again.

[xsilent13x]

Originally Posted by rfinkle2 Alright gen2 (and select 2009) guys... First, I apologize for using the wrong terminology (I should have used "limit" rather than "cap") (this is not in the interest of saying I told you so, but I feel like this point may be missed by gen2 guys who are using ots values in their throttle req load -x gear tables.) YOU WILL have an easier time tuning your boost curve if you set the table values to either 2.3 or 3. (depending on your setup and observed calculated load.) PLEASE LOWER YOUR WGDC TABLES AND TAKE THE NECESSARY PRECAUTIONS WHEN DOING THIS. IT WILL INCREASE YOUR BOOST LEVELS ON MANY CARS. Some of you have already done this, and others have not. IMO, there is now solid evidence that the throttle requested load x gear values ARE affecting your boost levels if left OTS. Please hear this out... Above is a post from arguably THE most respected tuner on the forum. Below is a collection of posts and data that back this up from the likes of Forzda, Fobio, DJ, Bluestreak etc. http://www.mazdaspeedforum.org/forum/foru...tml#post817485 Gen 2 Cobb ATR discussion Gen 2 Cobb ATR discussion http://www.mazdaspeedforum.org/forum/foru...tml#post820752 http://www.mazdaspeedforum.org/forum/foru...tml#post820330 http://www.mazdaspeedforum.org/forum/foru...tml#post817576 @Ckmazdaspeed3 was able to solve his problems after changing his throttle - req load x gear tables also. [IMG][/IMG] Happy boosting!

I have been frustrated searching for answers to why my car puts such low numbers on the dyno compared to friends MS3's and this completely cured it. Thanks to all the people involved. Car is a new beast.

[PapaSmurf]

Ok so i feel like im hitting boost cut in first gear now, but i did not change my req load first gear norm table... thoughts?

[Nataphen]

Is your boost spiking above your fuel cut boost limit in 1st?

EDIT: I gotta get to sleep, man. If someone else doesn't help you resolve the issue first, I'll get back with you tomorrow sometime.

[rfinkle2]

Originally Posted by MicaBlueMS3 Ok so i feel like im hitting boost cut in first gear now, but i did not change my req load first gear norm table... thoughts?

Do you have a first gear log mica?

What values do you have in your boost limit- fuel cut tables?

The fuel cut limits are usually about 2 psi above target boost, and if you have upped the boost target, you may be near the threshold.

One thing to try is to give the right hand side of your boost dynamics table in the 1-3 psi overboost region (MAKE SURE TO RE-ENTER NEGATIVE SIGNS) a few % more authority.

[atvfreek]

Originally Posted by MicaBlueMS3 Ok so i feel like im hitting boost cut in first gear now, but i did not change my req load first gear norm table... thoughts?

I belive you are hitting some type of load cut and not boost cut. I experience the same thing but only intermitantly and not when logging of course. But last time it happened I had boost on my screen and only hit 19psi.

I had a feeling when ATR first came out that requested load per gear was affecting boost. Looks like it really is that way.
AccessTUNER and Stage2 Calibrations Available for 2010 MAZDASPEED3!

[rfinkle2]

Originally Posted by atvfreek I belive you are hitting some type of load cut and not boost cut. I experience the same thing but only intermitantly and not when logging of course. But last time it happened I had boost on my screen and only hit 19psi. I had a feeling when ATR first came out that requested load per gear was affecting boost. Looks like it really is that way. AccessTUNER and Stage2 Calibrations Available for 2010 MAZDASPEED3!

@atvfreek ... You were definitely onto the idea a LONG time ago. FWIW, In the past, when my load tables were unaltered I hit a good .25 above requested load and didn't experience any cut.

The one time I hit fuel cut was @ 4 consecutive data points of around 20.43 psi, with a 20 psi boost fuel cut in the tables.

[Todd98SE]

After changing to 2.3 in the TRL X gear tables my problem with slowly building boost completely disappeared. I'm almost finished tweaking my WGDC table to hit boost targets with the BD table zero'd out. When that's done I am going to experiment and bring the TRL X gear loads back down to what I am logging calc. load at and see what effect it has.

Thanks to rfinkle2 and everyone else for this tip, it worked perfectly on my car.

[rfinkle2]

Originally Posted by Todd98SE After changing to 2.3 in the TRL X gear tables my problem with slowly building boost completely disappeared. I'm almost finished tweaking my WGDC table to hit boost targets with the BD table zero'd out. When that's done I am going to experiment and bring the TRL X gear loads back down to what I am logging calc. load at and see what effect it has. Thanks to rfinkle2 and everyone else for this tip, it worked perfectly on my car.

We all had input and figured it out together.

I'm just glad to see that everyone's car is running well.

[rfinkle2]

Hey guys,

A heads up. When I go to download the Cobb SF intake 93 octane map (stage 2), the 91 octane map downloads.

[Bucker]

Originally Posted by rfinkle2 Hey guys, A heads up. When I go to download the Cobb SF intake 93 octane map (stage 2), the 91 octane map downloads.

Gay. Thanks for the heads up.

[PapaSmurf]

Ok so thanks to @rfinkle2 my fuel cut problem is fixed, just a little boost dynamic tweaking.

But here are my latest logs a 3rd and 4th gear pull.

The map Targets 20psi and drops to 17.50 by redline, my boost is literally spot on and my WGDC isnt pegging 100, i think the highest it got was 94, which i could lower but im content with where its at.

enjoy!

Ambient temp was around 85.

[djuosnteisn]

I couldn't find my solenoid. I found an evo 8 one, but then gave it away to a guy with an evo 8 who i was mounting an ic core for.

I'll look more this week, and try to kill it.

[rfinkle2]

Originally Posted by djuosnteisn I couldn't find my solenoid. I found an evo 8 one, but then gave it away to a guy with an evo 8 who i was mounting an ic core for. I'll look more this week, and try to kill it.

I have a ton of stuff to install this weekend, and when I put my Grimmspeed in, I'll send you my stocker.

[djuosnteisn]

And then i will kill it, muhahahahaha.

If i find mine before then, i'll let you know i don't need it.

[rfinkle2]

Originally Posted by djuosnteisn And then i will kill it, muhahahahaha. If i find mine before then, i'll let you know i don't need it.

Sounds good. Videos of a smoky death would be nice. LOL

[PapaSmurf]

i actually have one with a broken nipple, id just have to find it.

[rfinkle2]

Does anybody know how Ck made out this weekend installing his turbo?
@Ckmazdaspeed3 , where are you????

We need impressions dammit!

[jwilkins88]

We were met with fail.

His car is still in my garage on jack stands. I couldn't get the shit that I needed because of the fucking fail ass holiday known as Easter.

Basically, we ran into some fucking issues with the install. I'm hoping that we can resolve them tonight. The install was slightly more retarded than I had anticipated. I'm almost starting to think that the genpu oil feed line is slightly larger than the gen 1s

[rfinkle2]

Originally Posted by jwilkins88 We were met with fail. His car is still in my garage on jack stands. I couldn't get the shit that I needed because of the fucking fail ass holiday known as Easter. Basically, we ran into some fucking issues with the install. I'm hoping that we can resolve them tonight. The install was slightly more retarded than I had anticipated. I'm almost starting to think that the genpu oil feed line is slightly larger than the gen 1s

Ahhh. I don't consider that fail @ all. I consider that Easter Bunny intervention.

[djuosnteisn]

Oil feed? Are you talking about the banjo bolt? Or the line itself? You need a different banjo bolt for the Garret chra, but it would have come with the turbo likely.

And depending on how everything is clocked, you may need to grind down one of the bolts that holds the compressor on (or hotside, i don't remember), in order for it to clear the banjo bolt. This is all from memory though, so take it with a grain of salt.