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12-31-2009, 10:13 AM | #441 |
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12-31-2009, 10:14 AM | #442 |
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Removing the RV is simply removing a layer of defense designed to prevent exceeding the system's designed pressure. It can be a workable method, but probably increases the probability of failure by orders of magnitude. For example, I have logged over 2000 PSI often on decel. So it is likely that I am lifting the RV. If that isn't available the pressure will spike much higher before the spill valve will open sufficiently to account for the rapidly decreased flow to the injectors... Good luck, but I would be very careful when proceeding. A higher rated RV will be a sweet improvement.
__________________ 08 MS3: ATP GTX3071 at 26PSI , AEM Dryflow 21-2147DK, CP-E 3.25'' MAF, CP-E Nviscid TIP, PG FMIC piping with Treadstone TR11 core, Cobb BPV, Ported IM, PG v1 manifold, CP-E catted DP, CNT CBE, KMD v2, Grimspeed EBCS, Alkycontrol Meth injection (M10 with 100% meth), E40 fuel, Cobb AP (ATR= WIN), ACT ZX4-HDSS, 3-Bar MAP, JBR RSB, and CP-E 60 Duro Engine Mount Set. (297.3WHP/366.9WTQ - on K04, 469.2WHP/420.7WTQ - on GTX3071) | |
12-31-2009, 10:14 AM | #443 |
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(Thread Starter) | Not Ranked : 0 score Yeah, that's real interesting. 2.5V is alot. I wish you could measure the voltage directly while doing that. Even if it works, i would have to guess that the relief valve was open that whole time, and you were probably overwhelming it. I'm not sure if that would be hard on the pump or not, cause as i understand it, the pump generates all that pressure anyways, and bleeds it off with internal spill valve. I also remember Whoosh saying something about the ms3 & ms6 being "different". Not sure if it has any relevance to this or not. Damn, now you have me all boggled, hahaha. How are all you 3's seeing higher than 1900psi? Seriously, it seems weird. My shit won't go 10psi over that relief pressure.
__________________ 500awhp 440awtq uncorrected EFR8374 ms6, no meth, 50/50 e85, and IDCs in the 90's @ 500+ awhp, with room to grow... fifth port winning. Count down to head lift.... 3.... 2.... 30r ms3 dd on deck, has fuel... needs top mount turbo lovin' next... Check out the hair Salon: www.permtuning.com |
12-31-2009, 10:21 AM | #444 |
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| Not Ranked : 0 score To achieve the voltage off set the sensor deviation set point was -75% on the SB pressure table. I only did that once, it kind of scared me a little lol!! I am not sure what would be the difference in the speed 3 and 6, since I have no one near me with a speed 6 and a SB to compare.
__________________ I am my own After Market Company. A common mistake that people make when trying to design something completely idiot proof is to underestimate the ingenuity of a complete idiot. - Douglas Adams Better to remain silent and be thought a fool than to speak out and remove all doubt. - Mark Twain Cops carry guns to protect themselves, not to protect you. READ THIS---- 2nd Amendment A well regulated Militia, being necessary to the security of a free State, the right of the people to keep and bear Arms, shall not be infringed. I've learned that pleasing everyone is impossible, but pissing everyone off is a piece of cake. |
12-31-2009, 12:19 PM | #445 |
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(Thread Starter) | Not Ranked : 0 score I'm starting to wonder if the speed3 relief valve is different than the 6. Socks, there's no way your valve could be from a speed6, right? Cause originally you were unable to build higher pressure.
__________________ 500awhp 440awtq uncorrected EFR8374 ms6, no meth, 50/50 e85, and IDCs in the 90's @ 500+ awhp, with room to grow... fifth port winning. Count down to head lift.... 3.... 2.... 30r ms3 dd on deck, has fuel... needs top mount turbo lovin' next... Check out the hair Salon: www.permtuning.com |
12-31-2009, 01:20 PM | #446 |
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| Not Ranked : 0 score On decel you will see higher pressure since the relief valve has to flow ALL the fuel since none of it is being injected. That's why you see the spiking. |
12-31-2009, 01:32 PM | #447 |
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(Thread Starter) | Not Ranked : 0 score I just pulled up an old log with ckt at minimum (essentially not ckt), and i do see 2250 on decel. And i guess spill valves wouldn't alleviate any of that, but they could (and i'm sure they do) open up as soon as possible to minimize the spike. So whatever is pumped into the rail would have to stay in the rail until injectors start spraying again. Ugh, maybe i'll just try to reduce one of the hole sizes by half or so and try that before i go complete block off.
__________________ 500awhp 440awtq uncorrected EFR8374 ms6, no meth, 50/50 e85, and IDCs in the 90's @ 500+ awhp, with room to grow... fifth port winning. Count down to head lift.... 3.... 2.... 30r ms3 dd on deck, has fuel... needs top mount turbo lovin' next... Check out the hair Salon: www.permtuning.com |
12-31-2009, 02:00 PM | #448 |
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If one of these changes suddenly (like on decel the volume to injectors goes to zero rapidly), then the spill valve PID loop will have to see the pressure increase and start to open to correct the over pressure setpoint condition. If this is too slow, then the RV will open preventing system damage. The stock spill valve tuning is currently configured to work with the stock HPFP output volume. This tuning is slow to respond to the increased volume generated by the aftermarket HPFPs thus resulting in pressure spikes and RV lifting events. If we gain access to the spill valve PID loop, then we can make the tuning more aggressive to account for the 40% increase fuel volume with aftermarket HPFPs. FYI, when designing these types of systems, it is never desired for the RV to actually lift during normal operation. The RV's purpose is to protect the system against abnormal conditions.
__________________ 08 MS3: ATP GTX3071 at 26PSI , AEM Dryflow 21-2147DK, CP-E 3.25'' MAF, CP-E Nviscid TIP, PG FMIC piping with Treadstone TR11 core, Cobb BPV, Ported IM, PG v1 manifold, CP-E catted DP, CNT CBE, KMD v2, Grimspeed EBCS, Alkycontrol Meth injection (M10 with 100% meth), E40 fuel, Cobb AP (ATR= WIN), ACT ZX4-HDSS, 3-Bar MAP, JBR RSB, and CP-E 60 Duro Engine Mount Set. (297.3WHP/366.9WTQ - on K04, 469.2WHP/420.7WTQ - on GTX3071) | |
12-31-2009, 02:59 PM | #449 |
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| Not Ranked : 0 score Not to thread jack, but I am as interested in how CPE is doing their now found magic as the next person and the ? was raised by DJ about what the SB is doing. The SB can only manipulate what it's intercepting, so I took a second and went thru all the connections it has in the instructions. I could list them all, but the only ones that apply or I don't know what they are - are 2r (actual fuel pressure sensor) 2ak (throttle body), and 1be (which is relay F36 - I don't know what that relay is - I'll figure it out later) But maybe since CPE's new trick involves flashes (they always have done a combo of flashes and piggyback for all you piggyback haters) that insert new values for these spill valves you guys are discussing????
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12-31-2009, 03:16 PM | #450 |
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| Not Ranked : 0 score The mechanical valve can't be defeated electronically. The SB can play with fuel pressure by manipulating the sensor just like we are. No more magic than that. |
12-31-2009, 03:29 PM | #451 |
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__________________ 08 CB MS3 Sport Sold 01 MX-5 (Project) 03 P5 (DD) | |
12-31-2009, 03:40 PM | #452 |
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(Thread Starter) | Not Ranked : 0 score That's the spill valve. It's ecu controlled via a solenoid. Lex is talking about the mechanical valve, which is a over-pressure relief valve, and has no ecu control. I'm very upset right now, and going to start drinking beer. I took a pill and welded the hole up nicely, leaving about half the area, and then ground down enough threads so part of the pill would stick down into the un-tapped section of the bore, so the relief valve would thread all the way in. Test fit it in my spare rail, and both threaded in perfect, so it looked like a winner. But when i was unthreading the pill, somehow it got cross threaded, and fucked up my spare rail. I'm not happy right now at all, and i'm not keen on risking damage to the rail on my car. Plus, even if it did fit, this solution is still a kludge (border line fail). Say we put a restrictor pill in there small enough to "hold higher pressure" while at wot, what happens when i let off the throttle and go into decel. The peak pressure are going to be much much higher than normal. Ideal solution at this point is a drop in replacement valve that doesn't open until 2300psi, IMO.
__________________ 500awhp 440awtq uncorrected EFR8374 ms6, no meth, 50/50 e85, and IDCs in the 90's @ 500+ awhp, with room to grow... fifth port winning. Count down to head lift.... 3.... 2.... 30r ms3 dd on deck, has fuel... needs top mount turbo lovin' next... Check out the hair Salon: www.permtuning.com |
12-31-2009, 03:43 PM | #453 |
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| Not Ranked : 0 score I think thats the best way to do it DJ. I would hate to see your car get messed up, or anything dangerous happen.
__________________ Kriebs Speed and Power Development. AIM: KriebsSPD |
12-31-2009, 04:13 PM | #454 |
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| Not Ranked : 0 score Sorry to hear DJ I will work on getting us what we need.
__________________ I am my own After Market Company. A common mistake that people make when trying to design something completely idiot proof is to underestimate the ingenuity of a complete idiot. - Douglas Adams Better to remain silent and be thought a fool than to speak out and remove all doubt. - Mark Twain Cops carry guns to protect themselves, not to protect you. READ THIS---- 2nd Amendment A well regulated Militia, being necessary to the security of a free State, the right of the people to keep and bear Arms, shall not be infringed. I've learned that pleasing everyone is impossible, but pissing everyone off is a piece of cake. |
01-06-2010, 02:15 PM | #455 |
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| Not Ranked : 0 score I have some news that I would like to pass on to the community. Both DJ and myself have been working on getting a higher pressure relief valve, and we have contacted several companies in our quest to find what we need. Most of the valves that we have seen has been too big and well over $250.00. The vendor that contacted me today gave me a quote for a valve that can be factory set at 2300psi (+ or - 4%), and is smaller than the rest of the valves. The best part of this is, the valve and manifold block will be about $72.00. I want to stress that this part is still a big maybe as to how well it will fit into our application. But, this is the best news that I have heard to date.
__________________ I am my own After Market Company. A common mistake that people make when trying to design something completely idiot proof is to underestimate the ingenuity of a complete idiot. - Douglas Adams Better to remain silent and be thought a fool than to speak out and remove all doubt. - Mark Twain Cops carry guns to protect themselves, not to protect you. READ THIS---- 2nd Amendment A well regulated Militia, being necessary to the security of a free State, the right of the people to keep and bear Arms, shall not be infringed. I've learned that pleasing everyone is impossible, but pissing everyone off is a piece of cake. |
01-06-2010, 02:31 PM | #456 |
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| Not Ranked : 0 score whats a manifold block? btw great news!!!!
__________________ 2006 Mazdaspeed 6 GT Black Mica #4126 KILLAH Built/SPEED PERF6RMANC3 (SP) 10.6:1 Pistons ~ SP 11mm H11 Head Studs ~ K1 rods ~ SP CNC Head Work ~ Crower 65lb Valve Springs ~ Fully Keyed/Pinned Motor ~ GTX35R w/Tial .82AR Hotside ~ JMF IM w/1000cc PI Injectors ~ SP 75mm TB ~ SP In-Tank FP w/Dual DW300's ~ AEM FPR ~ SP Custom PI Fuel kit ~ CPE 4" MAF ~ CPE SAFEseals ~ TR1035 FMIC ~ CPE Atmosphere DP/Ex Manifold/Oil/Water Lines ~ Tial MV-R EWG VTA'd ~ Denso ITV-24's ~ CPE Dual CBE ~ CPE BT TIP ~ CPE RMM ~ JBR TMM ~ JBR PMM ~ TTFMM ~ CPE RDM ~ Sonic Tuning CO's ~ LED Tails ~ Sonic Tuning HID's ~ Whiteline RSB ~ ACT 6 Puck w/unicorn dust First K04 in the 12's First MS6 in the 11's Certified RichTune E-Tuner |
01-06-2010, 02:36 PM | #457 |
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| Not Ranked : 0 score I assume that the Cobalt folks have an RV in their system as well. Can you just use theirs with perhaps an adapter piece or two? I understand they are running up to 2700 PSI...
__________________ 08 MS3: ATP GTX3071 at 26PSI , AEM Dryflow 21-2147DK, CP-E 3.25'' MAF, CP-E Nviscid TIP, PG FMIC piping with Treadstone TR11 core, Cobb BPV, Ported IM, PG v1 manifold, CP-E catted DP, CNT CBE, KMD v2, Grimspeed EBCS, Alkycontrol Meth injection (M10 with 100% meth), E40 fuel, Cobb AP (ATR= WIN), ACT ZX4-HDSS, 3-Bar MAP, JBR RSB, and CP-E 60 Duro Engine Mount Set. (297.3WHP/366.9WTQ - on K04, 469.2WHP/420.7WTQ - on GTX3071) |
01-06-2010, 02:49 PM | #458 |
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(Thread Starter) | Not Ranked : 0 score I'm not sure if we'll need the manifold block. I would think the valve would just thread straight into the rail, or into an adapter in the rail. Great find Scott! *double post merge with a pictar*
__________________ 500awhp 440awtq uncorrected EFR8374 ms6, no meth, 50/50 e85, and IDCs in the 90's @ 500+ awhp, with room to grow... fifth port winning. Count down to head lift.... 3.... 2.... 30r ms3 dd on deck, has fuel... needs top mount turbo lovin' next... Check out the hair Salon: www.permtuning.com |
01-06-2010, 02:58 PM | #459 |
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| Not Ranked : 0 score This is a two piece design, the valve body, and a block that has ports used for pressure in and pressure out.
This is a cartridge that is fit into the manifold with ports for in and out. But, with some thinking, a more streamed line version of the manifold could be made. I will know more once i can get my hands on one of these bad boys.
__________________ I am my own After Market Company. A common mistake that people make when trying to design something completely idiot proof is to underestimate the ingenuity of a complete idiot. - Douglas Adams Better to remain silent and be thought a fool than to speak out and remove all doubt. - Mark Twain Cops carry guns to protect themselves, not to protect you. READ THIS---- 2nd Amendment A well regulated Militia, being necessary to the security of a free State, the right of the people to keep and bear Arms, shall not be infringed. I've learned that pleasing everyone is impossible, but pissing everyone off is a piece of cake. | |
01-06-2010, 03:02 PM | #460 |
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(Thread Starter) | Not Ranked : 0 score Oh snaps, i see exactly what your talking about. Yeah, we'll see what you think when you get it. Thanks again man!
__________________ 500awhp 440awtq uncorrected EFR8374 ms6, no meth, 50/50 e85, and IDCs in the 90's @ 500+ awhp, with room to grow... fifth port winning. Count down to head lift.... 3.... 2.... 30r ms3 dd on deck, has fuel... needs top mount turbo lovin' next... Check out the hair Salon: www.permtuning.com |
01-06-2010, 03:08 PM | #461 |
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| Not Ranked : 0 score We are still using the stock RV, we simply tune for the pressure increase (THANK GOD!). We do run to 2750 psi, I THINK we can go farther, but no one wants to push it too much in case of fuel rail failure. No one needs much more pressure than that yet, so we will see when the pioneers get over 550whp...
__________________ Kriebs Speed and Power Development. AIM: KriebsSPD |
01-06-2010, 03:33 PM | #462 |
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__________________ I am my own After Market Company. A common mistake that people make when trying to design something completely idiot proof is to underestimate the ingenuity of a complete idiot. - Douglas Adams Better to remain silent and be thought a fool than to speak out and remove all doubt. - Mark Twain Cops carry guns to protect themselves, not to protect you. READ THIS---- 2nd Amendment A well regulated Militia, being necessary to the security of a free State, the right of the people to keep and bear Arms, shall not be infringed. I've learned that pleasing everyone is impossible, but pissing everyone off is a piece of cake. | |
01-06-2010, 03:36 PM | #463 |
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| Not Ranked : 0 score I honestly don't have a clue where it is on the engine, lol. Its so packed in our engine bay its not funny, plus i have never had a reason to look for it. If I get to the shop on Friday, I will take a look at our engine on the stand.
__________________ Kriebs Speed and Power Development. AIM: KriebsSPD |
01-06-2010, 03:38 PM | #464 |
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| Not Ranked : 0 score google may be your friend? Google search for the RV on the LNF motor ! |
01-06-2010, 03:39 PM | #465 |
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| Not Ranked : 0 score That would be great, I have tried to do searches for the RV on Google, but Google just looks at me like I am an idiot.....LOL!!
__________________ I am my own After Market Company. A common mistake that people make when trying to design something completely idiot proof is to underestimate the ingenuity of a complete idiot. - Douglas Adams Better to remain silent and be thought a fool than to speak out and remove all doubt. - Mark Twain Cops carry guns to protect themselves, not to protect you. READ THIS---- 2nd Amendment A well regulated Militia, being necessary to the security of a free State, the right of the people to keep and bear Arms, shall not be infringed. I've learned that pleasing everyone is impossible, but pissing everyone off is a piece of cake. |
01-06-2010, 03:41 PM | #466 |
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| Not Ranked : 0 score Yeah, I think I am stopping by the shop Friday, got an appt at school so I'll be around there.
__________________ Kriebs Speed and Power Development. AIM: KriebsSPD |
01-06-2010, 03:42 PM | #467 |
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| Not Ranked : 0 score I think I just found the answer.....It seems to integrated in to the fuel pump. I pulled this from redline forums: High Pressure Fuel Pump The high pressure fuel pump is a mechanical one cylinder design driven by an additional three lobe cam on the camshaft. High pressure fuel is regulated by the fuel rail pressure (FRP) regulator, which is a part of the high pressure fuel pump. The FRP regulator is a magnetic actuator which controls the inlet valve of the high pressure pump. The ECM provides battery voltage on the actuator hi circuit and ground on the actuator low circuit. Both circuits are controlled through output drivers within the ECM. When deactivated, both drivers are disabled and the inlet valve is held open with spring pressure. When activated, the actuator low circuit driver connects the low circuit to ground and the actuator hi circuit driver pulse-width modulates (PWM) the hi circuit. The ECM uses the camshaft and crankshaft position sensor inputs to synchronize the FRP regulator with the position of each of the three camshaft lobes. The ECM regulates fuel pressure by adjusting the portion of each pump stroke that provides fuel to the rail. The high pressure fuel pump also contains an integrated pressure relief valve. Fuel Rail Assembly The fuel rail assembly attaches to the cylinder head. The fuel rail distributes high pressure fuel to the fuel injectors. The fuel rail assembly consists of the following components: • The direct fuel injectors • The fuel rail pressure (FRP) sensor Fuel Injectors The fuel injection system is a high pressure, direct injection, returnless on-demand design. The fuel injectors are mounted in the cylinder head beneath the intake ports and spray fuel directly into the combustion chamber. Direct injection requires high fuel pressure due to the fuel injector's location in the combustion chamber. Fuel pressure must be higher than compression pressure requiring a high pressure fuel pump. The fuel injectors also require more electrical power due to the high fuel pressure. The ECM supplies a separate high voltage supply circuit and a driver circuit for each fuel injector. The fuel injector assembly is an inside opening electrical magnetic injector. The injector has six precision machined holes that generate a cone shaped oval spray pattern. The fuel injector has a slim extended tip in order to allow a sufficient cooling jacket in the cylinder head. Fuel Injection Fuel Rail Fuel Pressure Sensor The fuel rail pressure sensor detects fuel pressure within the fuel rail. The engine control module (ECM) provides a 5 volt reference voltage on the 5 volt reference circuit and ground on the reference ground circuit. The ECM receives a varying signal voltage on the signal circuit. The ECM monitors the voltage on the FRP sensor circuits. When the fuel pressure is high, the signal voltage is high. When the fuel pressure is low, the signal voltage is low.
__________________ I am my own After Market Company. A common mistake that people make when trying to design something completely idiot proof is to underestimate the ingenuity of a complete idiot. - Douglas Adams Better to remain silent and be thought a fool than to speak out and remove all doubt. - Mark Twain Cops carry guns to protect themselves, not to protect you. READ THIS---- 2nd Amendment A well regulated Militia, being necessary to the security of a free State, the right of the people to keep and bear Arms, shall not be infringed. I've learned that pleasing everyone is impossible, but pissing everyone off is a piece of cake. |
01-06-2010, 03:42 PM | #468 |
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(Thread Starter) | Not Ranked : 0 score This bitch probably knows where it is:
__________________ 500awhp 440awtq uncorrected EFR8374 ms6, no meth, 50/50 e85, and IDCs in the 90's @ 500+ awhp, with room to grow... fifth port winning. Count down to head lift.... 3.... 2.... 30r ms3 dd on deck, has fuel... needs top mount turbo lovin' next... Check out the hair Salon: www.permtuning.com |
01-06-2010, 03:49 PM | #469 |
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| Not Ranked : 0 score I hate to say it, but the Colbalts have a better design and control over the fuel pressure than we do.
__________________ I am my own After Market Company. A common mistake that people make when trying to design something completely idiot proof is to underestimate the ingenuity of a complete idiot. - Douglas Adams Better to remain silent and be thought a fool than to speak out and remove all doubt. - Mark Twain Cops carry guns to protect themselves, not to protect you. READ THIS---- 2nd Amendment A well regulated Militia, being necessary to the security of a free State, the right of the people to keep and bear Arms, shall not be infringed. I've learned that pleasing everyone is impossible, but pissing everyone off is a piece of cake. |
01-06-2010, 03:50 PM | #470 |
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01-06-2010, 03:53 PM | #471 |
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| Not Ranked : 0 score can we overcome the better design by the cobalts?? Can we gain this design somehow!? haha |
01-06-2010, 03:55 PM | #472 |
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__________________ 08 CB MS3 Sport Sold 01 MX-5 (Project) 03 P5 (DD) | |
01-06-2010, 03:57 PM | #473 |
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| Not Ranked : 0 score It would be nice. Their setup seems to let the ECU control the fuel pressure regulator (from what the article I found). HAHAHA!!! Funny Chris!! smart aleck
__________________ I am my own After Market Company. A common mistake that people make when trying to design something completely idiot proof is to underestimate the ingenuity of a complete idiot. - Douglas Adams Better to remain silent and be thought a fool than to speak out and remove all doubt. - Mark Twain Cops carry guns to protect themselves, not to protect you. READ THIS---- 2nd Amendment A well regulated Militia, being necessary to the security of a free State, the right of the people to keep and bear Arms, shall not be infringed. I've learned that pleasing everyone is impossible, but pissing everyone off is a piece of cake. |
01-06-2010, 04:06 PM | #474 |
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(Thread Starter) | Not Ranked : 0 score Our ecu has a similar control function. I can measure it one day if i ever get some time. By the way, my work gave me a broken 4 channel scope today cause it has a broken back light. So when i fix it, i'll be able to measure anything anyone wants (not body parts, cause i need more than 4 channels for that ).
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01-06-2010, 04:45 PM | #475 |
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| Not Ranked : 0 score Damn, I thought I was on to something with the LFN RV. The next step could be to look at every other DI motor RV and hope something is close. What about the new Taraus Ecoboost for example? Most industrial RVs are way larger (and more expensive) than what we really need.
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01-06-2010, 05:07 PM | #476 |
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| Not Ranked : 0 score Anyone look into hydraulic applications? Hyd PRVs are common: Hydraulic Relief Valve,Hydraulic Relief Valves,Hydraulic Relief Valve Manufacturer Adjustable Pressure Relief Valves - Hydraulic Supply Co. |
01-06-2010, 05:16 PM | #477 |
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| Not Ranked : 0 score Silver, I found that article right as I was walking out the door, lol. 1st google result haha. I honestly think that the $72 valve silver demon found would be great for you guys. You likely are not going to be able to find an OEM piece for that price. If the Balt piece was not integrated (which I am not entirely too sure how they use the term 'integrated'), its price would be ridiculous from GovernMENTAL Motors. Every piece for this engine is insanely priced, or not available. But, as a consolation, you could check your local Ferrari dealer, since the new California uses the same DI pumps as the Cobalt... meaning my Cobalt is a Ferrari. *AHEM*
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01-06-2010, 05:32 PM | #478 |
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I did find some small industrial inline relief valves with NPT fittings, but the were $300+ Silver, got a link to the $72 RV?
__________________ 08 MS3: ATP GTX3071 at 26PSI , AEM Dryflow 21-2147DK, CP-E 3.25'' MAF, CP-E Nviscid TIP, PG FMIC piping with Treadstone TR11 core, Cobb BPV, Ported IM, PG v1 manifold, CP-E catted DP, CNT CBE, KMD v2, Grimspeed EBCS, Alkycontrol Meth injection (M10 with 100% meth), E40 fuel, Cobb AP (ATR= WIN), ACT ZX4-HDSS, 3-Bar MAP, JBR RSB, and CP-E 60 Duro Engine Mount Set. (297.3WHP/366.9WTQ - on K04, 469.2WHP/420.7WTQ - on GTX3071) | |
01-06-2010, 05:38 PM | #479 |
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Manifold block is: FAB and it runs $18.86
__________________ I am my own After Market Company. A common mistake that people make when trying to design something completely idiot proof is to underestimate the ingenuity of a complete idiot. - Douglas Adams Better to remain silent and be thought a fool than to speak out and remove all doubt. - Mark Twain Cops carry guns to protect themselves, not to protect you. READ THIS---- 2nd Amendment A well regulated Militia, being necessary to the security of a free State, the right of the people to keep and bear Arms, shall not be infringed. I've learned that pleasing everyone is impossible, but pissing everyone off is a piece of cake. | ||
01-06-2010, 06:07 PM | #480 |
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http://www.mazdaspeedforum.org/forum/foru...1-2-3-a-45853/
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