How to scale the HPFP pressure sensor

[SpeedSixxx]

PM me your paypal and cost of shipping and i'll send you the shipping cost tonight.

=)

ty

[djuosnteisn]

It's on the first page AFAIK. I'll double check.

Yup, still there, post #1.

I'll pm shipping costs after i ship them. Prob won't ship till tomorrow, pretty busy at work.

[Fagwagon]

Cant wait to see you guys make for power with these! Good luck!

[SpeedSixxx]

Originally Posted by Fagwagon Cant wait to see you guys make for power with these! Good luck!

I promise to be the first stock block BT MZR to make 500 whp and blow cause of it.

at least I can say I was the first to find out how much power the stock block really can handle before zum zoom wanna wanna bing bang boom nukka!

Originally Posted by SpeedSixxx I promise to be the first stock block BT MZR to make 500 whp and blow cause of it. at least I can say I was the first to find out how much power the stock block really can handle before zum zoom wanna wanna bing bang boom nukka!

I hate to say this but the Turbo you bought isn't capable of making 500 whp. Only the gt3076 and above is. your stuck at 450 pussy

[SpeedSixxx]

Originally Posted by 18psiWhiteMS3 I hate to say this but the Turbo you bought isn't capable of making 500 whp. Only the gt3076 and above is. your stuck at 450 pussy

lololol......tiss it thee turbo it'self that makes yee only 450 hp.

He <== tiss thinks not....



sell and buy another turbo yee shall do ith my droogy!

[djuosnteisn]

I bet you could come pretty damn close to five if you pushed it like some push the stocker.

PM'd tracking numbers to everyone.

All circuits were set to minimum before shipping, and i tested them out a couple times.

I put stickers on the backside indicating which end goes towards the sensor, and which end goes towards the ecu.

You'll have to cut the three wires for the ms6:



left (brown) is the ground, and get's soldered to the black wire on the ckt.
middle (brown/black) is the signal line, and gets soldered to the green wire on the ckt.
right (red/black) is teh 5V, and get's soldered to the red wire on the ckt.

The MS3 has different colors, but maybe Lex or somebody can snap a pic. I'd be willing to bet that it's located on the same connector, but possibly different colors. They should be "ohmed out" to be certain which wire is which.


Here's a rough idea of what tuning i think will be required.

-Theory-
Once this circuit is installed, and adjusted for more pressure than stock, we are essentially throwing off the ecu's fueling calculations. It will run very rich if we don't do any tuning at all.

So how do we "correct" the ecu's fueling calculations? We trick it into thinking there is less air coming into the engine, thus requiring less fuel. This is done by skewing the MAF table, reducing the values for all voltages.

Skewing the MAF table will work fine for correcting the fueling, but...
*this is important*
... It will trick the ecu into thinking it's running at a lighter load than it really is!

This is where the real tuning is needed. Every table that uses Load as one of it's input parameters will need to be skewed as well. These tables are:
LOAD DEPENDENT TABLES
* Closed Loop Max Load A
* Closed Loop Max Load B
* Closed Loop Max Load C
* Closed Loop Max Load D
* Fuel CL Commanded EQ (base)
* Fuel OL/Part Throttle Commanded EQ (knocking)
* Fuel OL/Part Throttle Commanded EQ (no knock)
* Fuel OL/Part Throttle Commanded EQ (unused)
* Ign Table - High Throttle/OL (knocking)
* Ign Table - High Throttle/OL (no knock)
* Ign Table - Low Throttle/CL (knocking)
* Ign Table - Low Throttle/CL (no knock)
* DBW Throttle A
* DBW Throttle B
* DBW Throttle C
* VVT Intake Cam Adv.

- Load in these tables isn't an input parameter (on an axis), but instead an output. They need to be scaled still. For instance if you reduced your maf by 20%, and didn't change your TRL load value, you'd be targeting a load 20% higher than you were before -
LOAD CALCULATED TABLES
* Abs Load Limit - Fuel Cut
* Abs Load Targets (isn't used afaik, but might as well scale it to be safe)
* Throttle - Req. Load - 1st Gear (High BAT)
* Throttle - Req. Load - 1st Gear (Low BAT)
* Throttle - Req. Load - 2nd Gear (High BAT)
* Throttle - Req. Load - 2ndGear (Low BAT)
* Throttle - Req. Load - 3rdGear (High BAT)
* Throttle - Req. Load - 3rd Gear (Low BAT)
* Throttle - Req. Load - 4th Gear (High BAT)
* Throttle - Req. Load - 4th Gear (Low BAT)
* Throttle - Req. Load - 5th Gear (High BAT)
* Throttle - Req. Load - 5th Gear (Low BAT)
* Throttle - Req. Load - 6th Gear (High BAT)
* Throttle - Req. Load - 6th Gear (Low BAT)
* Throttle - Req. Load - Max A
* Throttle - Req. Load - Max B
* Throttle - Req. Load : Baro v. RPM
* Throttle - Req. Load A
* Throttle - Req. Load B
* Throttle - Req. Load C


Here's a quick example of why we have to scale all these tables essentially.

Say before at wot, you'd target a load of 2.0. This load corresponds to a given MAF g/s which in turn corresponds to a given voltage. We now skew that MAF setup, saying that the given voltage represents less g/s (air). Say we scale it by 20%.

So if you didn't change your load target of 2.0, the ecu would still try for it, but this 2.0 target will now be 20% more g/s than before, or alternatively, quite a bit more boost, lol.

Also now, the other tables like spark advance and CL fueling, will have a given spark and fuel target for a given load. But load now represents 20% more g/s than before, so this spark and fueling will be WAY too aggressive (e.g. too far advanced and too lean). This is why we have to scale these tables.




That's pretty much the theory on it. How to go about it? I'm not entirely sure yet, lol. I think the best way is to assume a safe percentage, and adjust all the tables listed above by copying and pasting values from Loads 25% higher, into Loads 25% lower for the LOAD DEPENDENT TABLES and simply reducing load values in the LOAD CALCULATED TABLES.

Visual example:
This CL fuel table:

LOAD	500rpm	1000rpm	1500rpm	2000rpm	2500rpm	3000rpm	3500rpm	4000rpm	4500rpm	5000rpm
1.75	14.500	14.500	14.500	13.000	12.965	12.462	12.186	11.978	9.943	9.755
1.81	14.500	14.500	14.500	13.000	12.883	12.286	12.045	11.910	9.943	9.755
1.88	14.500	14.500	14.500	13.000	12.765	12.095	11.919	11.793	9.943	9.755
1.94	14.500	14.500	14.500	13.000	12.633	11.919	11.728	11.675	9.943	9.755
2.00	14.500	14.500	14.500	13.000	12.516	11.728	10.994	10.516	9.943	9.755
2.06	14.500	14.500	14.500	13.000	11.884	11.044	11.044	10.516	9.943	9.755
2.13	14.500	14.500	14.500	13.000	11.884	11.044	11.044	10.516	9.943	9.755

Would become:

LOAD	500rpm	1000rpm	1500rpm	2000rpm	2500rpm	3000rpm	3500rpm	4000rpm	4500rpm	5000rpm
1.75	14.500	14.500	14.500	13.000	12.516	11.728	10.994	10.516	9.943	9.755
1.81	14.500	14.500	14.500	13.000	11.884	11.044	11.044	10.516	9.943	9.755
1.88	14.500	14.500	14.500	13.000	11.884	11.044	11.044	10.516	9.943	9.755
1.94	14.500	14.500	14.500	13.000	11.884	11.044	11.044	10.516	9.943	9.755
2.00	14.500	14.500	14.500	13.000	11.884	11.044	11.044	10.516	9.943	9.755
2.06	14.500	14.500	14.500	13.000	11.884	11.044	11.044	10.516	9.943	9.755
2.13	14.500	14.500	14.500	13.000	11.884	11.044	11.044	10.516	9.943	9.755

You can see that the 2.0 load was shifted down to the 1.75 load row, the 2.06 was shifted to teh 1.81 etc etc. I just maxed all the higher rows to the value that was in 2.13, but if you want to, you can actually reduce the values from 1.94 load to 2.13 load by 25%, since there is no row to copy into these. Probably safe either way.

A TRL example:
2nd gear, normal BAT

500	1000	1500	2000	2250	2500	3000	3500	4000	4500	5000	5500	6000	6500	7000
0.70	0.83	0.97	1.15	1.46	1.64	1.87	1.97	2.01	2.03	2.03	2.03	2.03	2.03	2.03

Would be come

500	1000	1500	2000	2250	2500	3000	3500	4000	4500	5000	5500	6000	6500	7000
0.52	0.62	0.73	0.86	1.10	1.23	1.40	1.48	1.51	1.52	1.52	1.52	1.52	1.52	1.52

(simply multiplied by 0.75)


Looks like a lot of work now that i actually wrote this up, let's hope its worth it, lol.

I'll prob get my first map ready some time next week, and if anyone wants me to email them a before and after map to check out, i can.


And i've said it many times already, but by all means, if you don't feel comfortable doing this, i'll will definitely guinea pig it, and simply post up my results.

Once i get a new map dialed in the way i like it with full scaling, i will dyno with both zero scaling and full scaling and post up any gains. I'll also do some comparisons with the scope so we get a better idea of how much more fuel we're getting out of this trick.

fuck the double post merge.

[Lex]

Bump because of automerge - I will add my comments to this later - must prepare for dinner now

[Lex]

To tune:

After upping the pressure, scale the MAF sensor. Then move on to the other tables once your STFTs and LTFTs are in check. Don't load the car up prior to changing these other tables.

To start out, I would change the timing tables first. I would shift all the timing row values down to a lower load. In other words, if you were seeing 6 deg advance at 1.89 load, now you would want to see 6 degrees at ~1.45. do this for all the rows of the table.

Secondly, I would move to the fuel tables. the closed loop section of the table, leave alone. The open loop section of the table, shift the rows down to the lower loads as you did with the timing.

Next, scale when the car enters/exits close loop. If it was at 1.89 before, change it to ~1.45. You get the idea.

Now that your timing and fueling are safe, start rolling into the throttle. You will likely see more boost being run since the MAF is scaled lower. In this case, lower your requested load tables as described for the timing and fueling tables.

Keep an eye on pressure. It should stay healthy across the board - at the values you were seeing before this mod. If you see it dropping, the fuel pump is not keeping up or something has gone wrong. Always keep an eye on AFRs and timing.

If anyone could make these changes and make it to a dyno, it would be very nice to see the results.

[djuosnteisn]

I will probably be at the dyno in a week or two.

[socks]

What about with a MBC?

You shouldnt have to worry about requested load.

What can i skip if i'm using a manual boost controller?

[djuosnteisn]

I'll be using a MBC as well, but just out of safety, i'll be changing all my TRL tables. Best to just change everything IMO.

[superskaterxes]

cant wait for this!!!

[djuosnteisn]

My pump won't be here till Wednesday, so i'll have to do some tuning with a turkey leg in my mouth.

[Deadman]

rofl

[SpeedSixxx]

what with the cpe pro fuel controller?

how does it control fuel?

why even offer a product named pro fuel controller if it doesnt control the pressure like we are doing here??..

please explain to me what their product does compared to this pressure mod.

[djuosnteisn]

Never heard of that product. Probably made to work with auxiliary fueling or meth.

ding ding ding

The cp-e™ ProFuel™ controller is an integrated, fully progressive supplemental fueling controller that can be used to operate either a secondary set of batch fire injectors, or a water/methanol pump. Now you can fine tune both primary and secondary fueling using a single controller, and with tremendous versatility

It's a fancy meth controller, and probably rad if you run a SB.

[Haltech]

Stickied... You sure you wouldnt rather have this in the fuel/nitrous section?

[socks]

my circuit came, i will work on it tonight or tomorrow.

i need to trace the wires and it may be too dark right now :-\

EDIT*

so, i wired it in. Car wouldnt start. Stumbled, but couldnt make enough pressure to crank.

So i took it out, and now the car is idling high (600psi+) at first it was idling at 800, but its worked its way down.

I dont know if it just adjusted for something I did wrong. I will try to do it again tomorrow when i have more time to mess with the wiring.


DJ, can you tell me what the colors on your sensor are? All the pics have been removed.

[djuosnteisn]

Originally Posted by Haltech Stickied... You sure you wouldnt rather have this in the fuel/nitrous section?

Put it where you see fit! Wasn't sure cause it was a "how-to" heavily ATR dependent and fuel related, lol.

Socks, call me if you have any questions at all! And i will definitely be moving forward on it if you want to wait, but by all means go forward if you want and keep us updated! I'm pretty sure you have my number, but i'll pm it to you again just in case.

[socks]

Ok,

From the sensor, I have:

Brown, White/Green Stripe, and Yellow

These change at the plug to:

Brown/Green Stripe, White/Green Stripe, and Green/Black Stripe (respectively).

[superskaterxes]

yah dustin you forgot to add what wires to tap on the sensor size

[socks]

No,

You run them all to that side of the plug, but the ms3 has different colors than the ms6 :-\

Ok, so here is the High pressure sensor on the MS3:



Then, at the plug:



Other side of the plug:



At that plug, Brown turns to Brown/Green,
White/Green stays white green
Yellow turns to Green/Black.

We just need to relate the MS3 and MS6 colors at the sensor.

I think I accidentally wired the circuit in backwards, how, i dont know.

Anyways, this will cause the ECU to see constant 5v, and attempt to lower the pressure, so thats why i wasnt making enough pressure for a start.

[djuosnteisn]

This thread was one giant trick by me, and you all fell for it, muhahahahaha. My name is Mike and i drive a bmw.

Jk, Sean, i'm 99% sure i didn't label your circuit backwards, but who knows maybe i did. I think you traced all the wires perfectly, but it does sound like it was in backwards, or broken. I guess let us know if / when you try it the other way. I know it does work, cause i did it, and it worked perfectly. I'd feel horrible if i sent you a bad circuit, i tested them like 5 times each just to be sure, lol. Let us know.

Rock on with your Socks on!

[socks]

Ok, so i rewired it in, double and triple checking. This time i soldered/heatshrinked the wires. This time it functioned correctly.

Here you can see the MS3 colored wires, and how they relate to the DJ CKT (Thats what im gonna call this thing from now on).


This is it cleaned up:


And for fun:

Thats right, Almost every time i work in the engine bay I take the hood off. With it getting dark so much earlier now, it helps out bigtime, and is so easy.

So, with the pot halfway, i get about -10% trim difference.

It runs almost a full point richer at WOT with no changes to the tune. And thats just halfway! I figure (and confirmed with dustin) if you dont lie to the maf table, and just change your requested Open Loop AFR table, that may be the only thing you have to change. I'll mess with it later.

game on.

[djuosnteisn]

I'm soooo excited right now!

Just to clarify, *ahem* i was the first with this on my car, lol, but socks your the first to go wot! I love it!


And yeah, modifying fuel tables alone would probably work (i'll think more about it once i leave work and clear my head), but only draw back is that your fuel tables will never align with logged afr's, but that's actually a small price to pay considering you wouldn't be "lying" to the ecu via maf tweak.

Great stuff Sean!

[socks]

The only thing wrong with that, is that you would then also have higher fuel trims.

unless you only modified the values under 100g/s to get the part throttle tuned, and then the OL Commanded AFR at higher loads.

[Fagwagon]

Originally Posted by socks Ok, so i rewired it in, double and triple checking. This time i soldered/heatshrinked the wires. This time it functioned correctly. It runs almost a full point richer at WOT with no changes to the tune. And thats just halfway! I figure (and confirmed with dustin) if you dont lie to the maf table, and just change your requested Open Loop AFR table, that may be the only thing you have to change. I'll mess with it later. game on.

turn up the fuckin boost and lean it out a bit! this is exciting shit.

[djuosnteisn]

If this all plays out well (cause these circuits are mainly just "proof of concept" pieces), i will design a better, more forgiving (tune wise) solution. Something where there is no tuning needed at all for part throttle situations, and only mild tuning needed wot!

So far though, seems like this concept is getting some proof!

[SpeedSixxx]

ok ok...i just got it in the mail today. looks simple enough to install.

I say this....I will be doing my install of a shit load of parts soon enough and then I'll be driving to NJ for a tune via Akuma.

I'll be sure to install in between dyno pulls in the tuning session to see what the diff is and have John tune for it.

I'll also be sure to have him read this ENTIRE thread so he knows what the deal is.

I can expect over 400 whp with the mods i'm installing and when I confirm this via kuma tune/dyno pull ill then install the fuel pressure mod and have it tuned/dyno'd again.

I know John/Akuma tune for the most performance gains at the safest level possible so I'll see how much "safe" power I can get out of this mod without going boom on 53k on the motor.

=)
ty , ty, ty so much DJ for the "gift" and i'll be sure to send you some funds by thursday.
wish me luck on the install and tune!

i'll make my own official thread in the weeks to come!

[djuosnteisn]

Let us proof this out a lil bit before you spend money for john to tune for it. There are likely bugs to figure out. I'd let him tune you safely without the ckt at first, and then you can possibly put it in later and just tweak the tune you paid for.

[socks]

so, on the mazdaspeed3 at least, there is a fuel rail pressure relief. if it goes above 1850 (spec) psi, the valve relieves pressure.

but, im able to see that with the dial turned up half way, im reading 1550psi when its relieving pressure, and all the way up, im reading 1420 when it relieves pressure.

so you can see that this with the dial all the way up, its scaling voltage enough for 430 or so more psi.

If we can somehow raise the relief valves pressure, we can assume that when we're reading 1780-1800psi, we are really getting 2200psi. however, until i can adjust that valve somehow (whether it be a new spring, or hopefully as easy as a shim), im stuck at 1850psi.

Dustin is having different results on his car, so the pressure relief may not exist on the speed6, or its at a higher pressure.

[Deadman]

according to Ron "whoosh" who i talked to today he did say this:
Just an FYI the speed3 is different than the speed6 in the whole fueling situation..and i hope the speed3 guys know this

well i was looking through my phone for the txt but i cant seem to find it... im sure he will jump in somewhere. (he mentioned something on these terms anyways..)

Just a coincidence that you brought this up now and i talked to ron at like 9am

[djuosnteisn]

Yup, (i can't drive around at wot, but i can sit in drive way and floor it to my launch control rpm), i can see a steady 1600psi ish, with my dial all the way up, and car unbelievably rich.

We need another 6 *ahem* super *ahem* to try it out and see. And another 3 *ahem*, anyone who wants a dj ckt *ahem*.

My car is a 2007, in case that ends up playing a role.

[socks]

Ok, so, here is the pressure relief valve:



also:


I know john@ptp has been modifying these, Ill have to look into how it works, and how to modify it.

[djuosnteisn]

LOL amazing timing, i just grabbed this spare fuel rail i bought a few weeks ago. Took a look, and what do you know.

Great find on the documentation Sean.


The pressure release is incorporated inside the nipple when you unscrew it. I'll post a better picture in a sec.

I guess speed 6 nipples are soon to be in high demand, haha. We need to find a way to shim this though.

[socks]

Im curious the difference.

I'll talk to Jason @ onlinemazdaparts tomorrow to see if he knows the difference, or what.

does that valve screw into the rail?

[djuosnteisn]

Yup, threaded right in there. Maybe you could buy a ms6 one for cheap? Easiest mod of all, lol.

Here's where it threads in:


Here's an up close of it:


Looks too complicated to modify by itself. It would likely need some sort of pressure reducer or something the thread into, but i'm not sure how to build such a thing.


It would still be easiest to buy a ms6 one as a replacement, unless they've been modified or use the same part as the new 3's, then there's no point.

One possible fix is to put two of them in a row, and then theoretically it would take double the pressure to open it, right?

[socks]

its actually a BITCH to get to.

Its behind the hard high pressure fuel line, and a coolant line.

I'd like to see how john@ptp is modifying them

or in what ways we test the ms6 one to be different.

[Lex]

Is that pressure relief used during normal vehicle operation or is it a safety measure? If it's a safety measure alone and you assume the risk, you can simply block it off.

You can also make the feed orifice to it smaller by introducing a washer with a smaller hole between the valve and the rail. This will reduce flow and should maintain higher rail pressure. You can play with hole size until you get it right.