"Standback Tuning For Dummies Guide" The Official Q&A...

[RichieRichness]

Damn, that seems easy enough! thanks dude. I just wasted $20 and an hour of my time installing this pos.

[djuosnteisn]

lol.

the other option is leave it installed, and re tune your car to it. Which isn't exactly wrong. Just another way to kill the ol kitty.

[RichieRichness]

If there is no real advantage to having the straightener then I'll take it out.

[MattJackson86]

I think straightener or not you are going to have to modify the MAF transfer table to get your trims inline. So leave it in and fix the trims or take it out and fix them. In my experience the MAF transfer is the first thing I tune to get perfect. Then move on to getting my AFR's solid.

[cpolly69]

dustin
couple quick ?'s -
1. when i'm closely monitoring trims i notice some patterns - like it's almost like there is 2 modes actually in closed loop - there is the trims that are created/stored under light pedal and what is created/stored under a bit more pedal - i can literally move my foot a tiny bit and see it change - do you know what these 2 modes are?
2. if you have a trim at wot - is it developed by what gets stored into log term during closed loop or is it a decision solely based upon what is actually happening during wot?
i ask this b/c when in have this issue it frequently seems to be one of the 2 numbers stored in long term that i mentioned in the first question....

[djuosnteisn]

Originally Posted by cpolly69 dustin couple quick ?'s - 1. when i'm closely monitoring trims i notice some patterns - like it's almost like there is 2 modes actually in closed loop - there is the trims that are created/stored under light pedal and what is created/stored under a bit more pedal - i can literally move my foot a tiny bit and see it change - do you know what these 2 modes are? 2. if you have a trim at wot - is it developed by what gets stored into log term during closed loop or is it a decision solely based upon what is actually happening during wot? i ask this b/c when in have this issue it frequently seems to be one of the 2 numbers stored in long term that i mentioned in the first question....

1. Long-term Trims are broken up into g/s sections within the ECU. For example (and i don't remember the exact break points, just making an example) from 0 - 8 g/s will be one section with it's own LTFT, then from 8.01 - 30 g/s will have a second LTFT, and 30.01 to 50 g/s will have yet another... and so on.

Short term fuel trims don't have break points, they just continually adapt instantaneously based on o2 sensor feed back. Once a sustained STFT is sensed by the ecu while meeting the desired fueling target for a given amount of time, that fuel trim will be added to the LTFT value for that g/s section.

I can get the exact stock break points if you wish, just lemme know.

2. There are no trims used during open loop. The last trim section ends at like 130 or 150 g/s or something like that. You'll notice that both your LTFT and STFT drop to 0 (or close to it) when at wot.

This is the main reason why the SB works, cause if there were trims and o2 sensor feed back, your SB tweaks would just be over ridden by fuel trims. You'd lean it out a bit, and the ecu would sense that and increase the wot fuel trim, basically undoing what you just changed.

... But it's the same concept for tweaking closed loop trims when desired.

[cpolly69]

My trims don't drop to zero in ol. My understanding of this if you have a trim when you transition it will apply to around 5200-5300 and then it will drop off, possibly causing you to jump or drop up to a whole point in afr (depending on how much trim is applied). I believe this because I have logged what I believe to be this actually happening. The SB & PNP generally doubles whatever trims I have on stock tune and no matter how long I try and train them down with the mafxfer or the normal table I have always had a very difficult time getting them down or they will not go down at all. I had a short period of time over this past summer where I was able to get them to zero in ol and was able to tune the car a bit. Lou, Demetri, Jake, and many others at CPE have seen this phenomenon on my car and have never been able to come up with a solid answer about why.

[djuosnteisn]

I think the drop off your talking about has to do with CL to OL delay. I've seen even ap logs in the past that exhibited delayed transition, maintaining both fuel trims and CL timing values until they finally switched over, sometimes well into a pull.

It will definitely affect afr's as well. I'm not sure what you could do to make the car transition faster.... but i'm confident that's at least the phenomenon your seeing at wot if your still having trims. Cause in OL the trims will go to zero.

[cpolly69]

Here are the trims doing what I'm describing up to 6k


And here is a wot run moments later - keep in mind I kept 11 afr, it was about 30 degrees outside and I'm 100% stock tune - no pnp or anything...


Any thoughts here would be appreciated. If I have a mechanical issue I want to find it long before it gets warm and I want to get more aggressive with the tuning....

[djuosnteisn]

I'll post up some thoughts here in a second... but it looks fairly normal IMO.

Lemme open up paint to help describe what i'm thinking....

[djuosnteisn]

Okay, it looks like the LTFT trace is actually using the blue axis for values, and the pink was probably used for KR which isn't shown. You can verify by opening that log in the DH software and move the blue scale up and down, and see if the LTFT moves with it. I'm confident it will.


So you can see you have a significant CL -> OL delay. I showed it in the baby blue on the pic above.

Like i said, i just helped out a buddy's tune where his car was staying in closed loop for quite a while after shifts, and targeting ridiculously low spark advance from the CL ign table.


I'm fairly sure that's the same thing that's going on with your car. Not sure how you adjust it though...

[spnkr21]

Dustin you're smart.

Hey everyone, I've shared a room with Dustin before.

Be jealous.

[djuosnteisn]

That weekend was fun as shit. I need a repeat.

oh, and no homo at all......


nothing gay about a couple mazda fans.... staying in a hotel room together..... nothing gay at all....

[wankular]

Did he "tune" you?

[djuosnteisn]

actually we both pretty much just binged and trolled the 247 guys in the lobby looking for a fight hahahahaha.

Twas the day of the OCC meet in NY.

[cpolly69]

Yeah
You're just making me want atr....
All I know is - pre fmic & cooler weather, the moment I pushed the pedal hard I transitioned and both stft & ltft dropped to 0. I'm pretty confident, even with the cooler weather I could get back to this just by putting my tmic back on. I've made it quite the habit to pay attention what mode I'm actually in depending on what I'm doing. In that run I don't see this big delay you speak of. I wish like hell the dashhawk could log c, l, and o . Did you notice at 6k I drop down to into the 10's finally in afr? I mean something has to be screwball for a fully bolted car to run 11flat on stock tune up to 6k????

[jhershorin]

Tim Dustin and Jake in a hotel room = dustin drinking alone going up and down in an elevator sitting on a lawn chair he found on the side of the road, saki bombing, scaring a 9 year old white girl and an 8 year old black boy who will never trust the new type of mexicans again...and tim being gone before we woke up...oh and using the street in front of occ as a 1/4 mile drag strip...in the rain

[cpolly69]

Dammit Jake
I saw you posted and I thought you were giving actual content as to my failboat....

[RichieRichness]

Originally Posted by djuosnteisn It's in the MAF screen, on a tab at the top of the table. Its a very basic voltage scalar for the maf voltage. If your having weird trims at idle, you log your MAF volts during idle, and see what they are. Then go to your maf xfer table and tweak it up or down (depending on direction of trims, add for + trims, and subtract for - trims) at the problematic voltages.

DJ,

I'm using the MAF Transfer Function but don't know how the numbers are scalled. For example if im getting +12.4 LTFT between 1.4 and 2 volts how would I correct this? I'm guessing the transfer function acts as a percentage? If so would I add 12.4

[cpolly69]

honestly man when i want to use this (on anybody's car but mine) i just drive around and watch the voltage range it goes into at idle and cruise (by watching what's highlighted on the maf xfer) and just start adding numbers - start with a 1 in all the needed areas and watch your trims go down - then increase until the trims get to 0 - just don't go to high into an area where you might wot b/c the extra fuel can cause kr
and it's prob quite a bit safer to do this with a friend.....

[MattJackson86]

Originally Posted by RichieRichness DJ, I'm using the MAF Transfer Function but don't know how the numbers are scalled. For example if im getting +12.4 LTFT between 1.4 and 2 volts how would I correct this? I'm guessing the transfer function acts as a percentage? If so would I add 12.4

To correct this you would put positive numbers in the range shown as your LTFT is positive. It is a percentage, but to correct a +12.4 LTFT you would probably want something like +2.5 in the MAF transfer table. That is just from my experiance.

[RichieRichness]

I made some adjustments and converted my MS CAI into a SRI. This messed my tune up a little. However, It oddly corrected my TRIMS. I was getting +8 to +14. I went SRI and new K&N filter and now I'm at -4 to +8.

Q: Will making adjustments in the MAF X-fer table throw off my tune?

Anyways here are some logs before and after adjustments...car runs great but feedback is appreciated.

Log after changing to SRI
12-28-2010 4th run 1.GIF

Log after adjustments
12-28-2010 4th run 2.GIF

Log after more adjustments
12-28-2010 4th run 3.GIF

[Click Here]

Originally Posted by RichieRichness I made some adjustments and converted my MS CAI into a SRI. This messed my tune up a little. However, It oddly corrected my TRIMS. I was getting +8 to +14. I went SRI and new K&N filter and now I'm at -4 to +8. Q: Will making adjustments in the MAF X-fer table throw off my tune? Anyways here are some logs before and after adjustments...car runs great but feedback is appreciated.

It looks to me like you're registering consistent knock in the 4000+rpm range. The DH obviously doesn't indicate how much boost you're running, so you either need to pull out a little timing, or dial your boost down a bit. On the other hand your fueling looks great. Have you posted a copy of your most current tune here?

And no, adjusting the MAF XFer will not affect your "tune" per se, so long as you keep the changes to the lower voltage ranges. If you're just trying to correct fuel trimming issues, limit your changes to the MAF Xfer table to 3-volts (or thereabouts) and below. Much above ~3-volts may start to interfere with WOT operation.

Edit: Why is your pressure holding steady at ~1575psi? Do you have a fuel pump? Are you doing anything funky in your fuel pressure table?

[djuosnteisn]

*edit... fast poster is fast ^^^
tweaks to the maf xfer table only affect the voltages you tweaked. So as long as those maf voltage regions remain in the closed loop realm... your wot tune will be unaffected.

[jhershorin]

Originally Posted by Click Here It looks to me like you're registering consistent knock in the 4000+rpm range. The DH obviously doesn't indicate how much boost you're running, so you either need to pull out a little timing, or dial your boost down a bit. On the other hand your fueling looks great. Have you posted a copy of your most current tune here? And no, adjusting the MAF XFer will not affect your "tune" per se, so long as you keep the changes to the lower voltage ranges. If you're just trying to correct fuel trimming issues, limit your changes to the MAF Xfer table to 3-volts (or thereabouts) and below. Much above ~3-volts may start to interfere with WOT operation. Edit: Why is your pressure holding steady at ~1575psi? Do you have a fuel pump? Are you doing anything funky in your fuel pressure table?

He has some added fuel pressure (neg values) so his dash hawk is reading lower then the actual output.

[Click Here]

Originally Posted by djuosnteisn *edit... fast poster is fast ^^^

Originally Posted by jhershorin He has some added fuel pressure (neg values) so his dash hawk is reading lower then the actual output.

Ahh okay, that makes sense!

[jhershorin]

"click here" you should come down to my neck of the woods tonight. I have some fun cars lined up to play around and measure some data lol

[RichieRichness]

I'll come out with you and Vlad. I get off work at 3...

[RichieRichness]

Originally Posted by Click Here It looks to me like you're registering consistent knock in the 4000+rpm range. The DH obviously doesn't indicate how much boost you're running, so you either need to pull out a little timing, or dial your boost down a bit. On the other hand your fueling looks great. Have you posted a copy of your most current tune here?

First of all a big thanks to Jake for getting me this far. I did pull timing...as you can see in the 3rd log there is only that one small blip of .4 KR. Only needed to pull .5 degrees at most to eliminate it.

Q: In the 3rd log you can see my timing dips after the .4 KR (not at the same time)...should I pull a little timing here? The KR is pretty consistent at .4 or .7.

Attached is a copy of my latest tune.
12-28-2010v2.zip

[jhershorin]

Glad you are coming out Rich!!! I wish i could get my meth running but still no time and no motivation to button it up. We'll pretty up the tune tonight as it still is a bit disorganized

[Click Here]

Originally Posted by RichieRichness First of all a big thanks to Jake for getting me this far. I did pull timing...as you can see in the 3rd log there is only that one small blip of .4 KR. Only needed to pull .5 degrees at most to eliminate it.

Ahh yeah, that was my bad. I didn't read what you wrote closely enough. I assumed all three logs were from the same tune file.

Originally Posted by RichieRichness Q: In the 3rd log you can see my timing dips after the .4 KR (not at the same time)...should I pull a little timing here? The KR is pretty consistent at .4 or .7. Attached is a copy of my latest tune. Attachment 20881

Hmm, not sure I follow that one.

1. Which dip are you referring to exactly? Can you approximate an rpm for me?

2. Are you saying the 0.4KR at ~5600rpm is consistent? You've got a lot of stuff going on right there in your tune we can talk about.

[RichieRichness]

Originally Posted by Click Here Ahh yeah, that was my bad. I didn't read what you wrote closely enough. I assumed all three logs were from the same tune file. Hmm, not sure I follow that one. 1. Which dip are you referring to exactly? Can you approximate an rpm for me? 2. Are you saying the 0.4KR at ~5600rpm is consistent? You've got a lot of stuff going on right there in your tune we can talk about.

Yes. I am talking about the .4 KR at ~5600 being consistent. Since I'm meeting up with Jake later I'll let him work magic on the tune.

[Click Here]

Originally Posted by RichieRichness Yes. I am talking about the .4 KR at ~5600 being consistent. Since I'm meeting up with Jake later I'll let him work magic on the tune.

Sounds good!

[djuosnteisn]

0.4 KR at 5600 could potentially mean more KR above... as that's the point the knock sensor goes deaf. Just something to think about.

Jake has a good sense of where timing should be though.

[RichieRichness]

Originally Posted by djuosnteisn 0.4 KR at 5600 could potentially mean more KR above... as that's the point the knock sensor goes deaf. Just something to think about. Jake has a good sense of where timing should be though.

I met up with Jake and his 335i BMW crew (Asians love dem BMWs!) last night for a couple runs....ran out of time and didnt get a chance to tweek the tune but the car feels strong. Did a 50 roll against Jake (on his stock tune) and was dead even. I'm pretty happy about that!

[jhershorin]

Originally Posted by RichieRichness I met up with Jake and his 335i BMW crew (Asians love dem BMWs!) last night for a couple runs....ran out of time and didnt get a chance to tweek the tune but the car feels strong. Did a 50 roll against Jake (on his stock tune) and was dead even. I'm pretty happy about that!

It was a great time. Rich's tune runs pretty well. He's got an intake and inlet and the tune we slapped together on the street a few weeks ago (not very detailed but just a quicky fun tune). My car with no tune and an intake vs his car was dead even. With just the intake I dyno'd 248-252whp and the two cars weigh I think 10lbs different. I did have my entire system in the trunk which adds about 75lbs lol but he has drivetrain loss. I would say his car is putting 255awhp on cp-e's dyno if I had to guess so my ricer math goes on to tell me higher end of the 2xx on a dyno jet. Good times. We'll have to plan something more than a few hours in advance next time lol

Rich - send me a standback log file if you can of a 3rd - 4th gear pull. Do a dash hawk log of the same pull and send me that screen shot and I'll iron out the last bit.

[RichieRichness]

Jake,

***Edit: My bad, forgot to take logs with SB SEE NEWER POST ***

Q: Why are my AFR's leaner now? It's 45 degrees out today and my tune was done in 32 degree temps. I thought the opposite would happen.

[MattJackson86]

Originally Posted by RichieRichness Q: Why are my AFR's leaner now? It's 45 degrees out today and my tune was done in 32 degree temps. I thought the opposite would happen.

What AFR did you target for when you tuned at 32 degrees? You are now around 12.1. Have you added timing since then? AFR's always seem to fluctuate a tad +/- .2 even at the same temp and I doubt a 10 degree difference would cause a huge jump in AFR. I target around 11.8/9 in sub 50 degree weather in my latest tunes. Will see how that changes as the temps increase.

[RichieRichness]

I'm targeting 11.7 - 11.9

[RichieRichness]

Originally Posted by jhershorin Rich - send me a standback log file if you can of a 3rd - 4th gear pull. Do a dash hawk log of the same pull and send me that screen shot and I'll iron out the last bit.

Jake,

Okay much better! Please see attached...I don't know if I captured the BBX log correctly. I don't have the BBX software. The bbx log is 7 MB which makes me think I logged a bunch of un-needed data...?...

I took one 3rd gear log and two 4th gear logs.

3rd Gear Log 1
3rd Log1.GIF
4th Gear Log 1
4th Log1.GIF
4th Gear Log 2
4th Log2.GIF