"Standback Tuning For Dummies Guide" The Official Q&A...

[phillyb]

here is a 3rd gear log.
what can/should i do



purple is knock up to around 3.5
yellow is afr
red is rpm
blue is fuel pressure

[AutoXRacer]

Philly, thats still not a good log...

You want to post something that looks like this (in this format/scale)...
Data Log Example

[phillyb]

what do you mean?
you can see everything except for the numbers for afr and knock. i just cut off the right hand side of the graph...

[phillyb]

here is a log with 1-4




what can i do?

[jmhinkle]

I've got consistent knock that doesn't seem to want to go away. It appeared with the cold weather and is pissing me off. What do you think of this?

[AutoXRacer]

Originally Posted by phillyb here is a log with 1-4 what can i do?

OK, start with zooming the timeline to 5.5 to 11.0.

[AutoXRacer]

Originally Posted by jmhinkle I've got consistent knock that doesn't seem to want to go away. It appeared with the cold weather and is pissing me off. What do you think of this?

How much max spark advance are you running? Are you sure you are getting good gas in there? Try adding some octance booster in your gas and see if it disappears or decreases. Try like the NOS Octane Booster Racing Formula...

[jmhinkle]

Under normal driving, the car will run up to 44 degrees of advance. It only gets this knock under WOT like the log and sometimes it's worse than what I got on this run. Never seen more than 6, but have seen over 5. I live at 5300ft so 91 is the best on tap. Is it any good? Hard to tell, but I drive a lot and go through tanks rather fast and I'm on a new tank now from a different station/brand and still getting knock. My tune has 1 degree of timing pulled where I'm getting that knock too. I see water injection in the near future.

[AutoXRacer]

I would suggest two things... They the octane booster and see if it gets rid of the knock or at least lowers it. The other is pull more timing and see if it does the same; just pull where you are getting knock.

[Twopoint0rex]

Ok guy's since I'm so far behind the times on all this, I need some help catching up. Plus it will help any new guy's who have not been on the forum's in a few years(like me lol)
I am now setting up my Dashhawk 2 and need some info. I would like to be setup the same as you guys so when we compare info it will be the same.
What are we putting in for these for a 06 speed 6.
Weight?
Frontal A?
Coeff Drag?
Speedometer correction say's original tire diameter is 26 , now do I leave that at 26 and just enter in my oem tire diameter? (anyone know what it is, It's too wet and cold to go measure lol)
Now I assume the correction factor for fuel economy will vary from car to car, but how much are you guy's getting for a correction?
How many number of samples?
Do you guy's check the manual log box and hit enter for each recording?


Oh and BTW I got a call from Jordan at CP-E regarding my Standback issues, They agree that something seems to wrong with my unit. He's sending me another unit to try.. Great customer support

[boosted3]

how do u post ur log in this forum and how do i scal eit down so it just shows 4 gear run

[andre0121]

3 questions:

1.) anyone with an upgraded turbo/ wastegate with a single nipple. what size hose/oriface are you using.

2.) im spiking at 27 and holding 27/26 on both stock maps.

3.) anyone using windows vista 64 bit. i cant load the maps because it finds a problem with the drive.


thank you guys

[www.cp-e.com]

Originally Posted by jmhinkle Under normal driving, the car will run up to 44 degrees of advance. It only gets this knock under WOT like the log and sometimes it's worse than what I got on this run. Never seen more than 6, but have seen over 5. I live at 5300ft so 91 is the best on tap. Is it any good? Hard to tell, but I drive a lot and go through tanks rather fast and I'm on a new tank now from a different station/brand and still getting knock. My tune has 1 degree of timing pulled where I'm getting that knock too. I see water injection in the near future.

I think AutoXRacer's suggestions were great. I'd start either by putting in some octane booster or yanking a little more timing to see if that helps. If it does then we may need to yank a little more timing in the winter. Another degree or two taken out may be enough.

Also, what did your boost do on that run? Are you getting any spiking now that the weather has gotten cold?

Shoot me a copy of your map if you'd like a suggestion as to where you should be removing timing.

Originally Posted by Twopoint0rex Oh and BTW I got a call from Jordan at CP-E regarding my Standback issues, They agree that something seems to wrong with my unit. He's sending me another unit to try.. Great customer support

I should be getting another unit out to you today. Thanks for bearing with us!!

Originally Posted by andre0121 3 questions: 1.) anyone with an upgraded turbo/ wastegate with a single nipple. what size hose/oriface are you using. 2.) im spiking at 27 and holding 27/26 on both stock maps. 3.) anyone using windows vista 64 bit. i cant load the maps because it finds a problem with the drive. thank you guys

Hey Andre, I got your email but I thought I'd just reply here if that's okay.

I'd try running a 0.050" to 0.060" orifice and see what you get. You can typically buy big drill sets with tiny drills at like a Harbor Freight or the like.

Your PID parameters are almost undoubtedly wrong for your mechanical setup considering that you're running a new wastegate. I'd change the PID values to:

kp: 25
ki: 0.15
kd: 300

The turbo will probably spool slowly, but that'll be okay until we figure out exactly why this is happening. You'd also be smart to change your timing based on map pressure so that if the boost does get out control like that again the SB will at least yank timing to save the engine. I'd be happy to set this up for you if you're interested!

What problem are you having with the drive? Are you able to load the USB drivers okay? I've spoken to two Vista 64-bit users that weren't able to load the USB drivers. Are you have trouble too?

[Silo]

Just to chime in... we finally managed (well I hope) to get our boost controlled with the ATP GT35 sucker. First we were overboosting (creep), pulled turbo and ported the wastegate, next we could not boost past 16 psi. The restrictor we used was 1.2mm (.047"), we tried 1.0mm next - nothing. Then we tried plugging the boost reference for the wastegate just to make sure it's not a stuck wastegate or something, overboosted, OK. Tried .6mm still boosting too high, finally settled for a .8mm (.031") restrictor.

Right now boost is initially overshooting target boost but I am confident I can iron this out with the advanced boost settings - gonna try above recommendations as well.

[andre0121]

Hey Jordan

yes the problem is i cant load the usb drive.

next, can you help me with the tuning, i feel like my motor is just waiting to blow. But first i need that software problem solved if not its impossible for me to load a new map.

thank you

[Smoker6]

D/led the 2.51 version and first of all I love the cleaner look of the application. I have a question that I asked before on 6club but can't remember if I had it adequately answered, so I'll ask it again. heh Specifically, can the SB log actual boost if I have a laptop hooked up? If so, which parameter is it?

The only boost related one I see is "Target Boost" under "Record", but that obviously doesn't help me. I'll be putting a boost gauge in this weekend finally so it isn't hugely important, but I'd like to know just to have the information.Also, I feel stupid since Laloosh assured me it's there yet I couldn't find it. lol

[Smoker6]

EDIT: Ahh double post.

[Twopoint0rex]

Can anyone answer my question? Some of You guys are running Dashhawks.

[www.cp-e.com]

Originally Posted by Smoker6 D/led the 2.51 version and first of all I love the cleaner look of the application. I have a question that I asked before on 6club but can't remember if I had it adequately answered, so I'll ask it again. heh Specifically, can the SB log actual boost if I have a laptop hooked up? If so, which parameter is it? The only boost related one I see is "Target Boost" under "Record", but that obviously doesn't help me. I'll be putting a boost gauge in this weekend finally so it isn't hugely important, but I'd like to know just to have the information.Also, I feel stupid since Laloosh assured me it's there yet I couldn't find it. lol

Absolutely. What you've got to do is open the program and hit the "Record" button in the top-left hand corner, and give the page a second to load. You should be able to click on one of the drop-down boxes on the left and select "MAP Pressure" in order to see your real boost pressure. Click "enable graphs" in order to start the graphs in real-time and it should display your actual boost pressure.

Originally Posted by Twopoint0rex Can anyone answer my question? Some of You guys are running Dashhawks.

I'm really sorry, but I'm not really too familiar with the DH. You might try posting on the Dash Hawk support forums if no one chimes in here:

Dashhawk - MSD Ignition Tech Support Forums

[Smoker6]

Dur. I insisted on looking for a Boost/Vac parameter like on the DH. MAP Pressure, of course. Ignorance is embarrassing. xD Thanks!

[www.cp-e.com]

Originally Posted by Smoker6 Dur. I insisted on looking for a Boost/Vac parameter like on the DH. MAP Pressure, of course. Ignorance is embarrassing. xD Thanks!

No worries! Some of the labels on there are, well, cryptic, lol. So if any of the labels don't make sense before we release the final set of instructions for this new version please don't hesitate to ask either here or feel free to email me for clarification: jgartenhaus@cp-e.com.

[Smoker6]

Not related to the version, but I was playing around with the SB today a bit and now that my main map is pretty good I wanted to make an economy map just for the experience and extra practice, setting boost to 0 max and tuning from there. I set the secondary boost fixed value to 0psi, but when I went for a drive I was hitting 15ish anyway. What am I doing wrong?

[AutoXRacer]

Originally Posted by Smoker6 Not related to the version, but I was playing around with the SB today a bit and now that my main map is pretty good I wanted to make an economy map just for the experience and extra practice, setting boost to 0 max and tuning from there. I set the secondary boost fixed value to 0psi, but when I went for a drive I was hitting 15ish anyway. What am I doing wrong?

You're not doing anything wrong. The wastegate on the stock turbo boosts 11-12 or so PSI minimum; from my experience.

[jwdp54]

ok i will be receiving my sb, pnp and fcf this week and talked a little bit with pale last night but need some more input on my car.
08.5 cwp ms3
4500 miles and had it since 3/27/08
my list of mods includes
injen cai
forge bpv
ed fmic
pg mani
turboxs dp/rp combo
rpmc inlet
denso plugs
stock turbo

now my question is will i be safe with all this? i'm wanting to do a 14psi and a 19psi map but what else do i need. pale said i need to get meth but i don't have much knowledge on it but am willing to learn since it would keep my car safe. how hard is it to install? how could i use my sb with it? would i be able to run 20 or 21 psi? thanks for the help and i can't wait to get started tuning.

[AutoXRacer]

Everyone tells me the same to get meth...but I'm not really interested in having a tank in the trunk and having to fill it up all the time; though I have no first hand experience.

Anyway, I think that meth is just for the big turbo guys or someone wishing to push the stocker to high PSI +20PSI...

I push my stocker to 18-19 PSI and I have no issues (no knock with 93 octane)...

[Silo]

While water injection is a very effective way if cooling combustion temperature and reducing detonation it's not a MUST HAVE and using methanol is like adding even more fuel (while you would want to lean out the excessive rich stock A/F ratios in the first line). Water injection was a life safer on the midengined MR2 turbos because those engine had a real cooling problem when you pushed them for longer periods (like on the Autobahn over here in Germany) but I don't see the need for it on the MS3 and 6 when I can run 11:1 A/F ratios at 20psi (with HPFP upgrade) with a GT35R and see EGTs in the stock range and almost no knock!

[jwdp54]

that makes me feel a lil better. thanks

[Silo]

Bear in mind, that what I said does not mean you can go and turn up the boost or lean out the A/F on a stock car and still be safe... it will drive up the EGT! That's when you would need WI (or some other upgrades that will reduce temps).

[Smoker6]

Another question I have is exactly the same one as was posted here:
CP-E Standback, Cold weather & Boost Control - Mazda6 / Atenza

Here is the post:

Well I did some searching but didn't come up with anything that seemed to address my question and that is: Has anyone noticed the boost pressure decreasing in the cold weather even WITH the standback AND using the dynamic boost control function? Here is what I noticed. This year, it's been getting colder and I have a boost gauge and the STandback this time around. I have my boost set to 17.5 psi for a maximum boost. I was getting this just yesterday when it was warmer out. Nothing has changed except the weather but today it was 26 degrees when I got up and drove to work and 42 at lunch and I'm only getting 15, or barely 16 psi of boost under full throttle. Now I know that in stock form, this happens because the ECU adjusts boost based on temperature and colder air is denser, etc etc, but my understanding is that CP-E targets the boost pressure value and gets it there no matter what the environmental parameters are. Anyone have any info? Thanks!

It seems if temperatures go below 45 degrees the SB does something to pull back max PSI. My SB is set to hit a max of 18psi and as long as its above 45 it does that. If it goes below 45 degrees though, the max I hit and hold is 16psi.

Any explanation and way to fix it?

My current boost settings:
kp: 30
kd: 200
ki:.100
boost clip psi: 10

[Silo]

Jordan@CPE would need to comment on that "cold weather boost limiter" but I can not see how it would accomplish that since there is not IAT signal input to the SB as far as I remember.

[AutoXRacer]

Yeah I agree, I don't understand what could be happening. I know when the weather cools off, I get a little higher spikes. I've had to tighten up the spike control on the boost settings due to the cold weather.

Jordan needs to comment on this one...

Are you hitting your boost target otherwise...? I know changing your values will get you to hit your boost target, though I don't know how it would react in warmer climate.

My settings are:

Kp: 30
KD: 350
Ki: 300

I have my target boost set at 18PSI, but spike to 20PSI in sub 50* weather and spike to 19 PSI in normal FL temps...

I could lower my gain (Kp) to 25 and lessen the spike along with increasing Ki slightly...

[Silo]

Oh yeah, don't ask me about boost settings - with the GT35R it's a major PITA!

Can you imagine, I have been going to extremes and still have spike as well as tapering boost:

kp: 10
kd: 600
ki: 0.400

The PID settings are really hard to understand IMHO. Maybe CPE could give a recommended "range" for each parameter. Or it's just that GT35R with internal wastegate is not really controllable, or maybe the OEM solenoid is too small as well... if I install a GT35R on a MS again I will go external wastegate for sure!

[AutoXRacer]

Originally Posted by Silo Oh yeah, don't ask me about boost settings - with the GT35R it's a major PITA! Can you imagine, I have been going to extremes and still have spike as well as tapering boost: kp: 10 kd: 600 ki: 0.400 The PID settings are really hard to understand IMHO. Maybe CPE could give a recommended "range" for each parameter. Or it's just that GT35R with internal wastegate is not really controllable, or maybe the OEM solenoid is too small as well... if I install a GT35R on a MS again I will go external wastegate for sure!

The only way I understand the PID settings are as follows:

Kp = gain; over all gain of the system, kind of like the gain on a radio for treble/bass.
KD = is how fast the boost hits the target PSI; the urgency of the boost build.
Ki = is the corrective factor to hit target boost, whether its under boost or spiking.

I just go out for a drive and play with each one separately (individually) and see how my boost responds. Its easier if you have a passenger making the changes as you drive.

[Silo]

I agree on the passenger point!

KD and Kp are not 100% clear to me. As per a previous post from Jordan you are supposed to increase KD in first line if your boost spikes intially, in second line you might decrease Kp but this will also adversly affect how fast boost is build (which you normaly would want to be AFAP)

And if you increase Ki too much boost will start to oscilate for the lower boost setting although it might work for the higher boost setting. So I have a suggestion for CPE: separate PID settings for primary and secondary boost!

[Silo]

Double post deleted.

[www.cp-e.com]

Originally Posted by Smoker6 Another question I have is exactly the same one as was posted here: CP-E Standback, Cold weather & Boost Control - Mazda6 / Atenza Here is the post: It seems if temperatures go below 45 degrees the SB does something to pull back max PSI. My SB is set to hit a max of 18psi and as long as its above 45 it does that. If it goes below 45 degrees though, the max I hit and hold is 16psi. Any explanation and way to fix it? My current boost settings: kp: 30 kd: 200 ki:.100 boost clip psi: 10

We really need to see a datalog here in order to figure out what's going on! I'll explain why...

What we've observed is that the boost target changes with temperature. But if you think about it, the Standback has a closed-loop boost control in that it actively targets a boost pressure. So that either means that the PID parameters aren't optimized properly (unlikely considering everyone's hard work here) or the Standback's boost pressure signal isn't agreeing with people's boost gauges.

The Standback knows what the boost pressure is by tapping into the factory MAP sensor's output. So all we're doing is trusting the factory MAP sensor that it's indicating the correct boost pressure. What's likely happening here, is that the MAP sensor's performance is not consistent through temperature variations. In other words, this is likely a case where the stock MAP sensor is not agreeing with your boost gauge.

So what I'd suggest you do is grab a partner and stick them in the passenger seat with a laptop. Watch the real-time graphs and see if the indicated boost pressure agrees with what your boost gauge is indicating. I think you'll find the discrepancy is in the sensor's readings, and not anything the Standback is doing in this case, but again this is easy to verify!

Originally Posted by AutoXRacer Yeah I agree, I don't understand what could be happening. I know when the weather cools off, I get a little higher spikes. I've had to tighten up the spike control on the boost settings due to the cold weather. Jordan needs to comment on this one... Are you hitting your boost target otherwise...? I know changing your values will get you to hit your boost target, though I don't know how it would react in warmer climate. My settings are: Kp: 30 KD: 350 Ki: 300 I have my target boost set at 18PSI, but spike to 20PSI in sub 50* weather and spike to 19 PSI in normal FL temps... I could lower my gain (Kp) to 25 and lessen the spike along with increasing Ki slightly...

Well that makes sense Gerald! If you think about it, you've tuned and tweaked your PID parameters to make the turbo spool as quickly as possible without any overshoot. As we know engine and turbo efficiency improves as the air gets colder, so the turbo will inevitably spool faster as it gets cold. In other words, you've tuned the turbo to spool as quickly as possible without overshoot, and now that it's spooling faster the control loop settings are no longer ideal. So what do we do???

What I would do is tune the turbo to spool quickly but not overshoot. In other words, in order to make it spool quickly and not overshoot in all temperatures you may need to leave a little potential on the table when the weather heats up. In other words, to ensure that the turbo doesn't overshoot in the cold you may need to reduce the gain of the system slightly when it's warm. So if I were you, I'd leave your settings as is and just try increasing kd another 100 and see what you get. Realize that even the best and most expensive boost controllers on the market can't get rid of the turbo's inertia!

Originally Posted by Silo Oh yeah, don't ask me about boost settings - with the GT35R it's a major PITA! Can you imagine, I have been going to extremes and still have spike as well as tapering boost: kp: 10 kd: 600 ki: 0.400 The PID settings are really hard to understand IMHO. Maybe CPE could give a recommended "range" for each parameter. Or it's just that GT35R with internal wastegate is not really controllable, or maybe the OEM solenoid is too small as well... if I install a GT35R on a MS again I will go external wastegate for sure!

You absolutely can control that turbo with the Standback! Member Laloosh was able to do it, despite the fact that it was still internally gated. The trick is finding the appropriate size orifice, and to select the right PID settings. I can tell you now that if your orifice isn't ideally sized then you're going to be chasing your tail trying to get the thing to operate correctly. But let's assume for a moment that the orifice is sized correctly (and if you're not sure on what size to use you might PM laloosh and see what size he chose).

What I like to do is set kp to a reasonable number, like 20. And the only reason why I know that's a reasonable number is because I've had lots of time to play. You'll develop a sense of instinct for each of the parameters in time as well.

Now, you said that you're spiking and you're also not holding your target. The fact that you're overboosting says to me that either your gain is too high or your kd is too low. However, looking at your values your kp is low, and your kd is high, which is good. That's sort of an indication that maybe your orifice isn't sized correctly. This is especially true since you overspike, and then undershoot your target.

What size orifice are you currently using? It sounds like it may be on the small side? And please guys, keep asking questions if things are unclear!

[Grim]

can the SB control boost even with a ewg?

[jwdp54]

well my sb package just arrived and will be installing tomorrow. only thing thats gonna set me back is my dh is not here....

[www.cp-e.com]

Originally Posted by Grim can the SB control boost even with a ewg?

Yeah, all we really need is a wastegate solenoid. So really, as long as you have one the SB can control just about any turbo setup.

[Silo]

Originally Posted by www.cp-e.com You absolutely can control that turbo with the Standback! Member Laloosh was able to do it, despite the fact that it was still internally gated. The trick is finding the appropriate size orifice, and to select the right PID settings. I can tell you now that if your orifice isn't ideally sized then you're going to be chasing your tail trying to get the thing to operate correctly. But let's assume for a moment that the orifice is sized correctly (and if you're not sure on what size to use you might PM laloosh and see what size he chose). What I like to do is set kp to a reasonable number, like 20. And the only reason why I know that's a reasonable number is because I've had lots of time to play. You'll develop a sense of instinct for each of the parameters in time as well. Now, you said that you're spiking and you're also not holding your target. The fact that you're overboosting says to me that either your gain is too high or your kd is too low. However, looking at your values your kp is low, and your kd is high, which is good. That's sort of an indication that maybe your orifice isn't sized correctly. This is especially true since you overspike, and then undershoot your target. What size orifice are you currently using? It sounds like it may be on the small side? And please guys, keep asking questions if things are unclear!

Hi Jordan,

the orifice - another PITA! I have used .6mm and it would not boost past 16 psi, I used .8mm and it would spike into the 24+ area causing spark blow out and a nice after fire in the exhaust! I couldnt find anything in between so I finally installed a needle valve similar to the one pictured to dial in the necessary pressure:



I really tried increasing/decreasing incrementially but no setting would work for both boost settings.

That leads me to believe that the stock solenoid is too small/slow for big turbos like the GT35R, especially if internaly wastegated (which limits the abilities of boost control). We have to reduce the boost the stock solenoid gets because it is not capable of bleeding enough pressure. Anyone ever tried the Perrin solenoid?



I have found a setting with an acceptable spike of 1.5 psi and an acceptable hold boost (while boost tapering after 5500rpm might not be the worst thing) and MAYBE it will be spiking less once ambient temps are over 10°C as we are around freezing point at this moment.

Oh, and I have no load cuts at all any more - despite the low ambient temps! MAF-XF adjustment: