"Standback Tuning For Dummies Guide" The Official Q&A...

[socks]

Originally Posted by vbt101 Thanks for chiming in. That's interesting. So, if you are going to have to change the MAF table anyway, then what's the advantage to the MAF xFer?

The maf transfer scales the voltage broadly. its a gross change. if the standback reads 2.5 volts from the maf, and you tell it to add 5% of fuel, it will send the ecu a 2.6 (or whatever 5% is) volt signal. the ecu will then send 2.6v worth of fuel. thats how it adds fuel.

the maf tables add fuel based on RPM and TPS. at 6000rpms, at 60% throttle, it will add 5% of fuel. This allows finer tuning during different types of driving. this still scales the maf signal to add/remove fuel, but it does it on a different basis.

[bykeryder4life]

ok since you guys are chiming in on this thread, If my LTFT were fairly high like 14.xx what kind of values can I throw in the maf x-fer table to bring my trims closer to zero? do i use positive or negative values?...

[socks]

If your fuel trims are positive, that means the ECU is ADDING fuel. if you want to bring it down, you have to add your own fuel.

Start with a 3 or so. I think to bring mine down from 20% or so i had to use 5's.

watch ALL your LTFT's to get a feel for where to put what values. If your idle fuel trims are 15%, add the 3's in the first couple boxes. there are 4 groups of fuel trims, based on the amount of air the MAF is seeing. try to catch them all, and correct them for the most part with the transfer function, and then dial in your AFR with the MAF table.

[vbt101]

Originally Posted by Cue Here's how I tuned. All this starting with timing pulled (about -5 to -7 from 4000rpm to 6000rpm) - The first thing you should do is find your turbo's effeciency range, during certain areas of the rpm band. Set your boost to that. 19psi isn't necessarily a good thing, cause over 4900rpm, the turbo can't do it... I think the max for MS3/6's is about 16 over 5000rpm. Having it set at 19 will just start blowing extemely hot useless air (while overheating your combustion chamber increasing temperatures and knock issues). For me (CX7) this is what I have set in my table..... 4100-4600 - 18psi 4600-4800 - 17psi 4800-5000 - 16ish psi 5000-5300 - 14.5ish psi 5300+ - 14psi

Wow, I didn't realize the turbo efficiency tapered that steeply. How did you come up with your efficiency ranges? Is there a data sheet for our turbos somewhere?

Originally Posted by Cue - Second, set your afr tables. I'm running from about 14afr (3800rpm) to about 11.7 (5500rpm).

Based on everything I've read, 14afr sounds really lean at WOT. Especially, as bykeryder4life mentioned, if you account for temp variations.

Originally Posted by Cue - then start advancing your timing until you knock. Afterwards, pull another .5 to be safe.

Would .5 be for an aggressive tune? I (think?) I've read that pulling 2 degrees would be good for a conservative tune. If pulling only .5 degree is sufficient and equally safe, then I'd rather do that.

Originally Posted by Cue All this being said, you should be logging and tuning at consistent BAT temps (Dashhawk). I'd say between 100-130. Below 100, you can tune much more aggressively, but really majority of the time, your not under 100. And not over 130, cause it's really not a good idea to be racing your engine that hot.

With an FMIC and meth, shouldn't we easily be below 100? Let's assume ambient is 80.

And, let's say our BAT went above 130--is there anything in particular that we can infer about the tune? (boost too high? excessive timing advance? too much meth? etc,..)

[Cue]

Originally Posted by bykeryder4life ok since you guys are chiming in on this thread, If my LTFT were fairly high like 14.xx what kind of values can I throw in the maf x-fer table to bring my trims closer to zero? do i use positive or negative values?...

You also may want to check your MAF sensor and/or position. Depending on how the maf is positioned will affect your trims.

But high LTFT's means lean STFT conditions...

[Cue]

lol... too long to quote your quote...

the .5 thing:
I meant, when you hit the timing degree that starts to give you knock, let's say -3.8, then pull another .5, so -4.3, to be safe...

14afr.... probably a touch high, but definitely above 13.5 at that point... IMO. In fact, at 4000 rpm, I'm still advanced in timing as well...

...God, I'd love to have meth... This being said, I don't have experience with this, so I'm not sure what type of temperature changes this will make...sry

And my boost is based on, like mentiond earlier, 700 runs (ok a little over exagerated). I've tried a straight setting of 18 and monitored my boost gauge... logged the max it could do at every 200rpm intervals (cause it certainly can't hold that much), then tuned from there. Watching rates of temp increase, logged times etc..

[yang_jackson]

took about 30 minutes to install last night. initial impression is MY CAR PULLS HARD!!! i upped the boost to 17psi and the turbo limiter was automatically turned off. these 2 things alone made a HUGE difference. randy (palerider) helped me set up the base map. and kyle (inspector gadget) helped me w/install. a big thanks to the both of you! also sent jordan at cp-e an email. im waiting for his response before really trying to tune the car. on sunday, i am going to ryan's (cali_axela) house to play with it a little more.... see if i can get my LTFTs to settle down a bit. im telling you.... WORLDS OF DIFFERENCE!!! i cant wait to get this thing dialed in!

anyone got any general tips for a standback noob? hopefully i will be able to post something useful in the not too distant future.

[bykeryder4life]

read this whole thread, and laloosh's standback tuning thread. actually read all the SB related threads because each has little bits of useful info in them somewhere. post datalogs so people can help and ask a bunch of questions.

[MattJackson86]

So I just installed my CP-E Catted downpipe and new CDFP internals. Car is running great and I am getting it re-dyno tuned on Tuesday. Last time the tuner only upped the boost to like 16.8 psi as knock was present if he upped it. This caused him to retard timing so much that he was making the same power at higher psi that he was at lower. Anyways, my question is, when I get it re-tuned on Tuesday, given my mods, what psi should I be looking to run and tell him to target? I am looking for a safe tune overall, nothing to wild.

[bykeryder4life]

there should be no problem running 17- 18psi on your setup. You should get an upgraded intercooler and some step colder plugs, thats gonna help quell some knock if you see alot. Your tuning guy should be able to make higher power on slightly more psi, he shouldnt tune it to the same power level at higher psi....who is doing the tuning? Post some logs and screen shots of your tune when done....

[MattJackson86]

Yes im planning on getting a new intercooler as really that is all the mods I have left to do on the car in my mind. Planning on an ETS TMIC. I will also be getting some plugs (maybe 2 step colder) and giving them another try. I had very strange issues with my SB last time I used colder plugs, but maybe that wont happen again.

[yang_jackson]

did some 3rd and 4th gear pulls on sunday. prob is, i dont know how to open em up. is ther especial software i need to read standback logs?

[bykeryder4life]

ya you need to get the blackbox software. search for it and you will find a link..

[yang_jackson]

ok, i am officially retarded. i downloaded 'blackbox', but dont know how to open it up. there is no 'install' wizard in the list of stuff under it. someone please help get me started. i dont know shit about computers and this is starting to frustrate me.

[yang_jackson]

some 4th gear logs. i was getting 2 degrees of kr from 5500-6000 rpm (on dashdaq). anyone ever seen the fuel pressure take a dive up top? i dont like the way this looks at all. boost was set at 17psi and everything else is zeroed out. input? do i need a new fuel pump? bought the car new and it only has 5k miles on it.

[bykeryder4life]

by the looks of those dips you are right at the limit of your fuel pump.

[spnkr21]

Hey I got a question guys. Randy had mentioned in one of the threads, to tune part throttle aswell as wot. I know how to do a fourth gear pull and tune from that but how do u do PT tune?

[yang_jackson]

i might be wrong, but i dont think you can tune pt w/the standback.... now will someone chime in on the 4th gear pulls i posted and help me tune this thing?

[spnkr21]

Check out your fuel pressure. U definately need one

[bykeryder4life]

standback cant tune part throttle. from what I have read/understand if you try to tune really low voltages/rpm's the ecu will eventually trim out those changes to compensate for them. changes should be made at wot/high load conditions.

[phillyb]

that's my understanding as well and definitely correct through verification from jordan. oh well...
you MIGHT be able to use the maf transfer function though.
i think this is where loosh takes the cake and the rest of us are just roaming around with our blinders on.

[phillyb]

Originally Posted by yang_jackson some 4th gear logs. i was getting 2 degrees of kr from 5500-6000 rpm (on dashdaq). anyone ever seen the fuel pressure take a dive up top? i dont like the way this looks at all. boost was set at 17psi and everything else is zeroed out. input? do i need a new fuel pump? bought the car new and it only has 5k miles on it.

your pump is not HORRIBLE, but it'll need to be upgraded. for now, i wouldn't really tune anything since your pump should be replaced before you adjust any fueling maps. though, i guess...
nevermind...
so you have knock at 5500? probably also around 5000, you can back up the timing if you'd like. put some -1's and -2s in the timing map for 3.1 voltage up to 4.9 or 5.0 or whatever. starting at rpm 5000 or so.
now, before you do that...change the config page for the timing table to read rpm vs map

[spnkr21]

I wonder what Randy was talking about in that post then because i think it was standback related.

[yang_jackson]

Originally Posted by spnkr21 I wonder what Randy was talking about in that post then because i think it was standback related.

you refering to my logs?

i took some logs at 15psi last night and the preussure was great..... then took some more at 17psi and they also looked fine. kinda stange.... think im just gonna keep my eye on it for the time being..

[kore2000]

Originally Posted by yang_jackson some 4th gear logs. i was getting 2 degrees of kr from 5500-6000 rpm (on dashdaq). anyone ever seen the fuel pressure take a dive up top? i dont like the way this looks at all. boost was set at 17psi and everything else is zeroed out. input? do i need a new fuel pump? bought the car new and it only has 5k miles on it.

How were you able to overlay your logs on the graph like that. I downloaded the BBX software but I can't figure out what I'm doing wrong. Everytime I tell it to graph 2 sensors, I get both of them in 2 separate boxes. Then I can only get one sensor to appear or the other. If I try to put both in the same graph, either the y axxis, or the y-right axxis will dissapper.

EDIT: Can someone answer this? Do you need the blackbox software on the computer to record a log, or just to view it. I recorded a log using the Standback software and said write to disk. Once the log was done saving, I downloaded the Blackbox software to view it. I open the log in slot 1, select my parameters, and click the Log 1 button. I then get a bunch of individual graphs that can't be merged or anything. If I try to put two parameters into one log I get the last one clicked only. What am I doing wrong?

[www.cp-e.com]

Originally Posted by spnkr21 Hey I got a question guys. Randy had mentioned in one of the threads, to tune part throttle aswell as wot. I know how to do a fourth gear pull and tune from that but how do u do PT tune?

I can't speak for Randy, but let me answer the question from my perspective. If Randy wishes to comment I welcome him to do so.

The Standback cannot tune at part throttle because the car is in closed-loop. By "closed-loop" I mean the ECU is targeting a specific fuel mixture ratio, and is using the wideband oxygen sensor for error correction. Any deviation in fuel mixture caused by the Standback will almost undoubtedly result in unexpected behavior.

You may recall many months ago when there was dispute about whether or not the car operated solely in closed-loop, and what, if any implications there were from that. We came to find that the car, like most other cars on the road today, operate in open-loop under heavy load conditions (read: Under boost), and more or less operates in closed-loop otherwise (Read: Not under boost). Okay...

Now, when you're in closed-loop the ECU has a specified fuel mixture and load target. The target mixture is stoich, and typically the ignition advance is increased until the engine is operating on the knock threshold. THIS IS NORMAL FOR ALL EFI CARS! The notion that you have to make any adjustments in this region is dubious in my opinion because so far as I know, no modifications will change part throttle conditions enough to justify messing with it. No turbo inlet, downpipe, or aftermarket turbo is going to require changes to fueling or timing at part throttle, simply because the engine isn't being loaded enough to cause any damage should a knock event occur. I mean, just think about it logically: You're choking the engine with the throttle; intentionally limiting it's power output, so the ECU compensates by optimizing the ignition accordingly. We optimize timing /because/ cylinder pressure is low!

This is sort of a slippery slope in the sense that by talking about tuning for part throttle, we might as well discuss part throttle knock. I imagine people are concerned about part throttle knock because they believe that is why engines blow up under light load conditions. Although I can't tell you exactly what the problem with these engines is, I have little doubt that it is totally unrelated to part throttle knock. If you guys would like to start a dialogue about this please go right ahead. I'll be happy to discuss this further.

But understand at part throttle it is advantageous to run the engine at stoich, and with lots of timing. OEM's have been tuning cars this way since electronic fuel injection and electronic ignition advance were invented. Stoich means a complete (read: clean) burn, is most thermodynamically efficient in terms of heat conversion into energy, and also happens to yield the best fuel mileage. If there were any risk of catastrophic damage at low load conditions, I don't think every manufacturer in the country would be tuning cars like this.

But again, I know people have many many questions regarding this topic as it's a popular one. So feel free to post up your burning questions.


As far as viewing log files, we did post the BlackBox software elsehwere but honestly it looks like it just got burried. I'll attach another copy to this post as well as get a link for downloading on our website.



To Graph:

Run the PMP.exe file once you unzip the folder. Once the program opens up, click the file folder 1 under “Open log files.” When you click the folder icon, navigate to the datalog file and open it. Once you do that, a series of graphing options will appear below. Click the check box for “Engine RPM,” and then click “Log 1” to open the graph. A new graph should pop up showing the engine rpm through the run. Notice in the new graph window you now have more graphing options on the left. You may click the other checkboxes to overlay more data onto the same graph.

The program is pretty intuitive, but here are some tips/tricks:

- Left-click and drag the mouse along the graph to zoom in
- Double click the graphs to see the graphing options
- You may load more than one datalog at a time for comparison. Just click the corresponding log button below (i.e. folder 2 would correspond to log 2)

[gsrtype1]

Hey Jordan car is doing great no more cut, Only thing is my afrs look stock even when i'm pulling a signifcant amount of fuel like 8%. I dont think I have a boost leak though I could be wrong. Is there a particular wire on the harness that could be malfuctioning you think?

[gsrtype1]

Also I noticed this issue, I don't know if this is a setting, but when I try to advance more than 3 degrees it sais "cannot advance more than 3 degrees in ajacent cells" even if im advancing in small increments. Also in the boost table it will not met me go higher than 22psi even though it sais enter value 0-30. Is there a max setting somewhere?

[spnkr21]

THanks for that post Jordan. I cleared it up with Randy earlier and he was talking about an o2 diode thing not the standback. I didn't read his post right. My B

[SpeedSixxx]

only on page 3 and i'm loving this entire thread....it most deff should be a sticky!!!

[bf360]

I think you misunderstood randys reasoning for tuning pt, the motor knocks pt which leads to engine failures, the idea is you richen it up and you get rid of pt knock and the motor runs cleaner/better, the other problem is this motor tends to stay in closed loop even when you add boost
The 08 sti have much the same problem and their motor didn't jus get weaker overnigt

[spnkr21]

Holy fuck sixxx is behind. It is stickied

[kore2000]

Originally Posted by spnkr21 Holy fuck sixxx is behind. It is stickied

Yeah, he sucks..

[kore2000]

Originally Posted by www.cp-e.com To Graph: Run the PMP.exe file once you unzip the folder. Once the program opens up, click the file folder 1 under “Open log files.” When you click the folder icon, navigate to the datalog file and open it. Once you do that, a series of graphing options will appear below. Click the check box for “Engine RPM,” and then click “Log 1” to open the graph. A new graph should pop up showing the engine rpm through the run. Notice in the new graph window you now have more graphing options on the left. You may click the other checkboxes to overlay more data onto the same graph. The program is pretty intuitive, but here are some tips/tricks: - Left-click and drag the mouse along the graph to zoom in - Double click the graphs to see the graphing options - You may load more than one datalog at a time for comparison. Just click the corresponding log button below (i.e. folder 2 would correspond to log 2)

This is what happens to me:

I redownload the file and unzip to a new location.
I run the PMP.exe program.
I click the file folder and select my log, in this case test.bbx.
I click Engine RPM and select Log 1 button.
I get a window with the graph in it.
I select another paramater and the Y axis dissappears and the y-right axis appears. However, only one parameter is on screen and it will not overlay.
Nothing in settings makes any difference, I have selected nearly everything.
This happens on my Laptop (Vista SP2), Business Laptop (XP Pro SP3), Work Desktop (XP Pro SP3)
Could there be something wrong with the log?
Do I need the Blackbox software on the computer at the time of log recording or can I make a log and then save to the computer, download the BBX software later, and then view it.
Can someone post a log that is confirmed correct so I can test the software with a known working log?

Thank you.

[yang_jackson]

kore, try a wot log and see how it comes out. you dont need the blackbox at the time of log.... at least i didnt. i had a few logs first, dl the bb software, and it works great. if you wanna see some logs posted w/bb, scroll up...... i posted some 4th gear logs earlier.

[SpeedSixxx]

Originally Posted by kore2000 Yeah, he sucks..

since when did this thread become a bash speedsixxx thread instead of a guide on how to tune your MS3/6 yourself?

I apologized on the other thread for being a complete dick and there is no need for more child like behaviour.....but what the fuck! I guess I deserve it.....

maybe one day I can redeem myself from the ranks of a piece of shit asshole! i hope ( in all seriousness)

[spnkr21]

Sorry bro

[yang_jackson]

Originally Posted by SpeedSixxx since when did this thread become a bash speedsixxx thread instead of a guide on how to tune your MS3/6 yourself? I apologized on the other thread for being a complete dick and there is no need for more child like behaviour.....but what the fuck! I guess I deserve it..... maybe one day I can redeem myself from the ranks of a piece of shit asshole! i hope ( in all seriousness)

seriously dude.... you ask for it. just leave shit alone..... dont respond. your posts perpetuate it. for example, if you reply to this thread, you are perpetuating it. just write useful posts or pertinent questions and leave everything alone.... if you want the bashing to stop...then you gotta stop first.

first test: can you stop yourself from replying to this post?

[SpeedSixxx]

I was wondering if you can answer a question for me Jordan?

I read what you wrote about VTA and the SB and now after reading it from you I will change back to recirculating tomorrow afternoon until I get a SB & FCF.

My car has been in VTA since FEB and my car still drives great but like I said after seeing what you wrote I am just slightly worried about any damage I may have caused and what is your opinion?

I use Denso 2 step colder plugs so I'm not too worried about them being burnt up soon but you mentioned the injectors and fuel dilution.... would 4 months of VTA really do much damage?

thanks in advance!

[yang_jackson]

are afr read accurately w/dashawk after sb is installed? or does it skew the reading?