2010+ Mazdaspeed 3, I recommend to monitor your fuel pumps closely

[Silver Ecstasy]

I'll wait to buy any fuel mods. A year from now, we will discover it has nothing to do with the hpfp, but by then all the pump companies would have made their money.

[dizzydtrain]

After a few more emails back and fourth they will try to get me another pump in exchange. I am pretty happy that they are willing to help me out and I am hopeful that this will solve my problem.

[rfinkle2]

Originally Posted by dizzydtrain After a few more emails back and fourth they will try to get me another pump in exchange. I am pretty happy that they are willing to help me out and I am hopeful that this will solve my problem.

I'm really glad to hear that @dizzydtrain .

I hope your new pump holds stupid pressure. LOL

[xxdjfate76xx]

Any info on the in tank pump removal procedure? I've used walboros' before but in a 240sx it's cake to remove

[indianaryan]

One more update. I got a chance to go WOT a few times yesterday, and the FP dropped a couple times in 2nd gear again. I'm sick of tuning around the stock fuel pump, so I'm back on the stock tune. I did a MAF calibration on it so the AFR won't be way off like it was before.

I could lower the boost targets, but what's the point? I'll be getting the Autotech internals when they're available again in about a month. And now I know a little bit about using ATR. So it wasn't a complete waste of time lol.

So the moral of the story is....plan on buying a fuel pump if you get an AP. I know that it's been said before, but it's worth repeating. Take it from a guy that tried to make it work and failed miserably lol.

EDIT: Thanks to rfinkle2 and everyone else for the help along the way. I literally had no tuning experience (I still don't know much yet). I wouldn't have even tried doing anything in ATR if it wasn't for people helping me through it.

[xxdjfate76xx]

let me use your AP while you wait

side note, I was scoping out the trunk yesterday for any accessable locations to get into the fuel tank. Doesnt seem like there are any, which means we would have to drop the tank to access the intank pump. Will be a pain in the ass

[dizzydtrain]

Originally Posted by xxdjfate76xx let me use your AP while you wait side note, I was scoping out the trunk yesterday for any accessable locations to get into the fuel tank. Doesnt seem like there are any, which means we would have to drop the tank to access the intank pump. Will be a pain in the ass

Well that would suck. i am still hoping that the hpfp is the culprit here.

[indianaryan]

Originally Posted by xxdjfate76xx let me use your AP while you wait

Haha no way! It's still a ton of fun even if I'm not using it to it's full potential.

[rfinkle2]

I hope that none of us have to get into this (and this is a double install)...

Dual Walbro 255lph Pump Install Pictures

[spoof3r]

I just posted my first log with my new autotech internals installed. I'm still new to this tuning business, but on my stock pump it was usually around 1200-1300psi at WOT. Now it appears to be in the 1700 and 1800's with these autotech internals.

Turns out this was a good recommendation ;-)

[Speed3eak]

Have any of you guys with new pumps changed your HPFP tables @ WOT? As in requested higher fuel pressure than the stock/OTS value of 1670 psi.

Just curious.

[wolly6973]

I did not.
I don't want to put any extra stress on the rest of the fuel system (rail & PRV specifically).
I know there have been a few PRV failures with gen1 after fp installs &/or raising fp in ATR.

[Speed3eak]

I know bmorrisj said his blew because he raised fuel pressure at low/part throttle times. There are requested hpfp tables A-F, referenced by rpm and load, so after doing a few logs you should see that you only need to raise it in a small portion of cells to keep from constantly stressing your PRV.

IIRC, there are even guys who are intentionally overwhelming the valve so the crack pressure is where their fuel pressure is lowest rather than highest. But again, this is only at WOT.

I didn't know of any rail failures after only installing internals - I know dougefresh had his quit because his ptp internals were constantly above the crack pressure.

I feel like the CP-E pump doesn't look as "impressive" after installs because it can follow requested pressure more closely. Pure speculation, but that's my guess. IIRC, our crack pressure is 1850 psi, so requesting 1800 only at wot shouldn't be too much of a problem if it doesn't exceed that for part throttle conditions.

My guess is that it was put in there for when your fuel pressures sky rocket after letting off the gas - the pump, being cam driven, takes a while to slow down so I imagine that it protects the injectors and/or prevents the engine from running excessively rich. If that's true, then the PRV is meant to open quite a lot - every time you take your foot off of the gas (you'll notice requested fuel pressure is 1670 for a lot of conditions other than WOT in ATR). If this is the case, I don't see the problem with targeting higher fuel pressure, if it is only at the loads and RPMs where you WOT. I do want to say that I have no idea if that's actually the case, this is just me thinking out loud, and going off (more like extrapolating) what I've read in some fueling threads recently.

[wolly6973]

All sounds logical to me, so the opposite is probably true with this car... lol

I haven't adjusted mine, since I am seeing 17xx - 18xx at WOT already.

My theory is that since the ECU knows how to adjust the stock fp, if we were to increase it, it would probably end up being more than requested with an aftermarket fp.

[rfinkle2]

italic text is from Christian's recommended upgrade path:

I thought it might be relevant @ this point in the thread.

With a higher
capacity fuel system, you will be able to further benefit from higher base DI Fuel Pressure. With a fuel
feed line that has a slightly larger orifice and with a safety relief valve that releases above 2000+psi, the
fueling system capacity is increases by about 10% (which is very helpful) and with the higher pressure,
the cooling effect of the fuel injection is increased.

[Speed3eak]

Hmm, sounds interesting - IIRC someone (erich?) was having trouble with the injectors opening at 2100 psi commanded. I know silverdemon has been working on making a hprv (2250 psi?), but even then it's still gonna require some DIY stuff.

If you guys wanna read up some more on this, definitely check out the gen 1 fuel forums:
MazdaSpeed 3/6 - Fuel, Nitrous & Water Injection - Mazdaspeed Forums

[Nataphen]

Damn, I've been gone for too long. Looks like you guys are asking some good questions and trying some good theories. Dizzy, I mainly wanted to check up on your situation, so I'm glad to hear that CPE is stepping up. Keep us posted until the resolution, please.

As far as the stock pump tuning, leaning out AFR targets and revising WGDC and boost targets to ramp up more slowly is the best strategy. For optimal tuning, Dustin has said that 11.76 AFR is the best in relation to what you can raise your boost and timing advance to without getting knock. However, tuning around the stock pump doesn't allow you to tune to optimal levels, so it takes a totally different approach in tuning.

The best way that I've found through much discussion and experimentation (probably 20+ map revisions and countless logs) is to start with the appropriate s1 map for your intake, and slowly lean out the AFR targets, stopping at 11.9-12.0. This is still safe for running at the lower boost levels that we are able to achieve with the stock pump and the leaner AFR will actually help your pump to hold pressure as it will use less fuel. For your first boost targets and commanded WGDC, I would just start with the s2 safe mode tables and slowly go up. Simply adjusting your boost targets will not always get you where you want to be, you will have to revise your WGDC along with it.

I've ended up with boost targets from 3000-7000 as follows:
13.5, 15.5, 16.5, 17.5, 17.5, 16.75, 16, 16

And the corresponding WGDC targets:
15, 20, 21, 35, 40, 40, 35, 35

I'm staying within .5psi of my targets in my logs, and my FRP is holding to well over 1600 at all times, usually 1700+. My current target AFRs are 12.0. My FRP problem area was 4-5k RPM, so I just kept the boost low there and brought it up where I never saw problems. I've kept my WGDC at ~80% or less, so the turbo isn't working it's ass off now. I was seeing some 100% WGDC even on the safe mode map.

Hopefully, I will be doing more revisions and logs today, so I will let you guys know what happens. I'm starting with one more small change to my WGDC, then, I'll be working on the timing tables again. I've already been advancing timing, but since FRP seemed to be holding so well with the slower boost increase, I pulled the timing back to the s1+ map values and started raising boost.

To answer the question about why boost tapers off at 6k+, that is because your stock TMIC will not be efficient at higher boost in those RPMs. If you look at the tables for an upgraded IC map, you will see that boost holds in the higher RPMs. If some of you guys aren't wanting to spend the cash on a CDFP, or if you are like me and just won't be able to buy one for a good while, these tips should help you get the most out of your stock POS pump.

[Speed3eak]

Nate, you're running 91 octane, correct?

I didn't know how much the afr's could be leaned out with 91 without causing knock. Leaning out AFR has had a tremendous effect on how well the fuel pump holds pressure IME. I never saw pressure drop in weather that it would normally go to ~900 psi at WOT by running AFRs of 11.8 across the board instead of 11.3 like in the OTS map. Same boost, same wgdc, etc.

I was just looking at a datalog in another thread, and I saw one guy with 12* of advance at redline on a 91 octane map, so it should be pretty easy to push your timing a few degrees without seeing knock. The combination of leaner AFRs and more timing though, could well cause some knock, but I don't know how much of either it would take.

Also, I dunno how bad you're heat soaking, but that is something else to take into account when you start getting more aggressive with your AFRs and such. I was fine at 11.8 on my second WOT run - but on my first, which I did after sitting in traffic, I saw a sustained ~ 2 KR just because my BATs didn't drop quickly enough.

[Nataphen]

Originally Posted by rfinkle2 Over the weekend, I changed my fueling tables to transition from closed loop to open loop fueling a bit sooner, and also leaned my afr's out to about 11.6 @ wot. I couldn't have done it without @Dano2010 's thread. I chose not to rely stricly on load values, and lowered my CL max throttle postion tables to about 60%. My logs look great and the car still feels seamless during OL / CL transition. It is interesting to me that Cobb decided to bring the boost on even later than the stock map. I know that Christian mentions the weak point of the ms3 is our rods, but was surprised to see that he moved the boost curve that far up in the rev band.

I did this as well. I was not happy with how quickly my WOT AFRs were coming into line at the initial hit of the throttle, so I changed my CL max throttle tables and it helped with that issue. Very nice tip, finkle.

Originally Posted by Speed3eak Nate, you're running 91 octane, correct? I didn't know how much the afr's could be leaned out with 91 without causing knock. Leaning out AFR has had a tremendous effect on how well the fuel pump holds pressure IME. I never saw pressure drop in weather that it would normally go to ~900 psi at WOT by running AFRs of 11.8 across the board instead of 11.3 like in the OTS map. Same boost, same wgdc, etc. I was just looking at a datalog in another thread, and I saw one guy with 12* of advance at redline on a 91 octane map, so it should be pretty easy to push your timing a few degrees without seeing knock. The combination of leaner AFRs and more timing though, could well cause some knock, but I don't know how much of either it would take. Also, I dunno how bad you're heat soaking, but that is something else to take into account when you start getting more aggressive with your AFRs and such. I was fine at 11.8 on my second WOT run - but on my first, which I did after sitting in traffic, I saw a sustained ~ 2 KR just because my BATs didn't drop quickly enough.

I'm on 93, and I use Shell VPower gas only since that's what I've been tuning with. I figure that this will help my consistency with fuel qualities. If you look at the ATR help file, it states that AFR for this car in the low 12s is fine. As far as BATs being too high from heat soak, I'll definitely have that problem in TX, we've already had a couple of 90*+ days here. I usually don't have to sit in traffic, but when I do, I don't get on the gas very hard. I have finalized my CS TMIC order, so cooler BATs and more boost to redline are only a few days away.

After that, CDFP, then, meth. I just helped JacksonMS30 with his Labonte meth kit this weekend. He says the car pulls like a beast now, and KR is basically nonexistent.

[rfinkle2]

@Nataphen, I've since lowered those throttle position values even lower (experimenting with the 40% range now), especially considering that wot is @ a 75% throttle position.

There is a thread that mentions it, but I also changed my closed loop exit delay to 15, rather than 40.

[dizzydtrain]

Originally Posted by Nataphen Damn, I've been gone for too long. Looks like you guys are asking some good questions and trying some good theories. Dizzy, I mainly wanted to check up on your situation, so I'm glad to hear that CPE is stepping up. Keep us posted until the resolution, please. As far as the stock pump tuning, leaning out AFR targets and revising WGDC and boost targets to ramp up more slowly is the best strategy. For optimal tuning, Dustin has said that 11.76 AFR is the best in relation to what you can raise your boost and timing advance to without getting knock. However, tuning around the stock pump doesn't allow you to tune to optimal levels, so it takes a totally different approach in tuning. The best way that I've found through much discussion and experimentation (probably 20+ map revisions and countless logs) is to start with the appropriate s1 map for your intake, and slowly lean out the AFR targets, stopping at 11.9-12.0. This is still safe for running at the lower boost levels that we are able to achieve with the stock pump and the leaner AFR will actually help your pump to hold pressure as it will use less fuel. For your first boost targets and commanded WGDC, I would just start with the s2 safe mode tables and slowly go up. Simply adjusting your boost targets will not always get you where you want to be, you will have to revise your WGDC along with it. I've ended up with boost targets from 3000-7000 as follows: 13.5, 15.5, 16.5, 17.5, 17.5, 16.75, 16, 16 And the corresponding WGDC targets: 15, 20, 21, 35, 40, 40, 35, 35 I'm staying within .5psi of my targets in my logs, and my FRP is holding to well over 1600 at all times, usually 1700+. My current target AFRs are 12.0. My FRP problem area was 4-5k RPM, so I just kept the boost low there and brought it up where I never saw problems. I've kept my WGDC at ~80% or less, so the turbo isn't working it's ass off now. I was seeing some 100% WGDC even on the safe mode map. Hopefully, I will be doing more revisions and logs today, so I will let you guys know what happens. I'm starting with one more small change to my WGDC, then, I'll be working on the timing tables again. I've already been advancing timing, but since FRP seemed to be holding so well with the slower boost increase, I pulled the timing back to the s1+ map values and started raising boost. To answer the question about why boost tapers off at 6k+, that is because your stock TMIC will not be efficient at higher boost in those RPMs. If you look at the tables for an upgraded IC map, you will see that boost holds in the higher RPMs. If some of you guys aren't wanting to spend the cash on a CDFP, or if you are like me and just won't be able to buy one for a good while, these tips should help you get the most out of your stock POS pump.

I will keep you posted. Sander has a pump set aside for me, I just have to receive and install it. Hopefully that will resolve my issues and I can continue modding happily--if not, looks like I might have to look at my other options, such as the in-tank pump (hope not, the install looks like a bitch).

A lot of good stuff going on here. I feel like I have been missing out since I have been busy with work/not really doing much car-related since my fp fiasco--I got some catching up to do.

[indianaryan]

I thought it was strange that the throttle position suggested in Dano's Boost Tuning thread was 100%. I don't how that works, but I guess it works for those guys. Seems to me that OL would never kick in since the throttle position never hits 100%. But apparently it's a situation where if one of the two are true (throttle postion>100% and load>1.25), then the transition from CL to OL occurs. I left mine at 75% just to see how the car acts, but I changed the max load to 1.20 up to 4500 rpm. It seems to work great, but I may experiment with lowering the throttle position from 75%.

[rfinkle2]

here is another closed loop specific thread.

NOTE: exit delay A was changed to 15 from 40 (ecu processing delay shortened)

Closed Loop Tables

[indianaryan]

Originally Posted by dizzydtrain A lot of good stuff going on here. I feel like I have been missing out since I have been busy with work/not really doing much car-related since my fp fiasco--I got some catching up to do.

I know what you mean. I hate trying to tune around my stock pump. At least I'll know what to do when I upgrade. Hopefully your CP-E HPFP was just a bad pump and the new one will take care of the FP drops.

[Nataphen]

Originally Posted by dizzydtrain I will keep you posted. Sander has a pump set aside for me, I just have to receive and install it. Hopefully that will resolve my issues and I can continue modding happily--if not, looks like I might have to look at my other options, such as the in-tank pump (hope not, the install looks like a bitch). A lot of good stuff going on here. I feel like I have been missing out since I have been busy with work/not really doing much car-related since my fp fiasco--I got some catching up to do.

I have another tune that I just revised to go log. I will take a look at my CL/OL AFR transition closely again, I may change it up a little more.

Another thing that I did was change the APP translation tables in 1st-5th gear to direct translation, i.e. 2.00=2.00, 50.00=50.00, etc. What this does is remove much of the throttle lag that you feel with a boost based tune so that the throttle response is more snappy. I would leave the 6th gear APP translation alone. I tried that one too, and when you're in cruise control and it needs to accelerate, it tries to take off and build boost very quickly.

None of that has anything to do with tuning around the fuel pump, it just makes the car more responsive at part throttle. You may like it, or you may think that it's too touchy. I personally hated the laggy feeling of the OTS map and was wanting it to feel more like a throttle cable than DBW.

Originally Posted by rfinkle2 here is another closed loop specific thread. NOTE: exit delay A was changed to 15 from 40 (ecu processing delay shortened) Closed Loop Tables

I'll try those out, though it looks like some of the max load changes have already been implemented into my gen 2 OTS map.

[Nataphen]

Update on stock pump tuning:
I just hit 276 and 277 MA g/s this morning during two 3rd gear pulls in 50* weather. KR never went to more than .9 very briefly, and FRP was 1600+. I'm targeting 18.5 psi max now, and 12.0 AFR from 3k+. My WGDC is still in the 80s or less. I'm also running a little timing advance now, but still trying to see how far I can go on boost before I start adding much timing.

My mods are SRI and CBE only.

[rfinkle2]

I've yet to look over this in my logs, but @fjames pointed this out in Dano's thread, and it might be something to pay attention to.

From pg. 71 of the ATR helpfile (in italics)

In order to achieve more consistent boost control, it is essential that the individual "Throttle - Req. Load
(Norm BAT)" tables fall within .05 of actual observed Calculated Load. It is also essential that the values
in the "WG Duty Cycles" are not over-aggressive. These values are a base for the Boost Dynamics system
to start from, and can cause boost oscillations if set too high.

[Nataphen]

My WGDC is nowhere near aggressive, it's way less than OTS s1+. My boost usually stays within .5 psi of my targets pull after pull, and is always less than 1psi off target.

[Higgypiggy]

Hi all,
Just wondered if anyone knows of any reason why my mk2 would misfire after a map. the cel light is on as well fault code is P1039. i have a corksport sri and tip plus racepipe and downpipe. hks cb system itv24 denso and ptp pump internals. when booted the car chucks out black smoke and to me smells likes its over fueling. please any ideas as the car is a year old and i think the tuner has damaged the car with a faulty map. The misfire can happen in any gears, revs and speeds. I'm from the uk but most people on our mpsowners site say most of the know how and parts come from the states therefore you guys and girls may know more then half our tuning companies. It was doing this before I went from itv22-24 and then tried pump internals and still no joy. It's like I've driven away sensibly and all the sudden I've switched the engine on and off quickly total loss of power for a second. Drive it like a granny and you feel it hesitate. thank you in advance.

[rfinkle2]

P1039, Vehicle Speed Signal Missing or Improper (Ford PID)

I would contact Ecutek if your tuner used the Ecutek software.

[trf5000]

Got to groan you higgypiggy. You already posted that in the other thread http://www.mazdaspeedforum.org/forum/forum/f505/miss-fire-after-map-mps3-mk2-76960/.

Wait for your response there. Don't fill up threads with the same post over and over again.

[Higgypiggy]

Yes it was ecutek and they told me p1039 was bank one sensor two fault. O2 sensor post main cat (decated completely) he said it's reading a lazy response. Does that sound right as this isn't the speed sensor.

[rfinkle2]

Originally Posted by Higgypiggy Yes it was ecutek and they told me p1039 was bank one sensor two fault. O2 sensor post main cat (decated completely) he said it's reading a lazy response. Does that sound right as this isn't the speed sensor.

I very well may be wrong on the Ford pid, and that makes sense considering I think you are totally catless now. I'm going to find your other thread and try to help you there.

[Higgypiggy]

Sorry for re posting but I realised the other one was listed as mk1 discussion. New to this school boy error.

[wolly6973]

Next lesson.
We are not in the VW world...
It is gen1 aka genwon or
gen2 aka genpu

not mk1 and mk2

Originally Posted by Nataphen Update on stock pump tuning: I just hit 276 and 277 MA g/s this morning during two 3rd gear pulls in 50* weather. KR never went to more than .9 very briefly, and FRP was 1600+. I'm targeting 18.5 psi max now, and 12.0 AFR from 3k+. My WGDC is still in the 80s or less. I'm also running a little timing advance now, but still trying to see how far I can go on boost before I start adding much timing. My mods are SRI and CBE only.

277 is awesome!
I am only hitting 260 max. Need to get that dp on there!
I also only have 91 oct though...

[Nataphen]

You should still be able to get in the 270s with similar mods and conditions. Leaning out the AFR is one of the best things to get your pump to hold pressure, not to mention that it helps make significantly more power.

[wolly6973]

I am getting quite a bit of knock that I am trying to figure out before i lean it out too much. I target 11.4 and hit it pretty well, but the knock really screws with it.
Most of the time it is <1, but occasionally it goes up over 1 or 2.
I am gonna get a step colder set of plugs and see if that helps.

[Nataphen]

What boost levels are you running, wolly?

BTW, here's my log that I hit 277.71 g/s. No ifs, ands, or buts, this was a bad ass run for my car. I sustained 260.65-277.71 g/s from 5100-6700RPM, felt very strong. This was a 4th gear pull, I also hit 276-277 on a couple of 3rd gear pulls. See, you can have fun with the stock pump, you just have to work at it a little, LOL.

[wolly6973]

I haven't touched the targets from OTS, so peak 19, taper to 17.5.
I usually only build up to a little over 18.
All I have done to my maps is the OL changes suggested by Dano, some tweaks to the APP, and leaned it out to 11.4.

[indianaryan]

Originally Posted by Nataphen What boost levels are you running, wolly? BTW, here's my log that I hit 277.71 g/s. No ifs, ands, or buts, this was a bad ass run for my car. I sustained 260.65-277.71 g/s from 5100-6700RPM, felt very strong. This was a 4th gear pull, I also hit 276-277 on a couple of 3rd gear pulls. See, you can have fun with the stock pump, you just have to work at it a little, LOL.

Nice job man! Did you have to calibrate the AFR at WOT/OL when you targeted 12:1? I think I need to do so on mine, because the actual AFR is a little off from the calculated AFR even after I did a MAF calibration for idle/partial throttle shown in this thread:

HOW TO CALIBRATE YOUR MAF! With An Example

One thing I noticed on your logs and mine is that the AFR jumps around a lot. On mine they jump from 10.88 to 11.17 a lot. I'm not sure how to calibrate that. My LTFT's are within +/-1%.

EDIT: This is quote taken from the How To helped me understand what I was doing wrong.

Originally Posted by djuosnteisn You want to adjust all across the board. Or the method i like to use... is adjust the 2.6 - 5 volt range necessary to make your OL afr's match your targeted afr's. For instance. If you got WOT, and your afr's are hitting 12's across the rpm range.. and you OL fuel tables are requesting 11.5's... then you need to multiply the OL portion of the MAF table (2.6V - 5V) by 1.043. That will bring your WOT afr's down. It's very similar to using the LTFT + STFT values in closed loop, but basically your using the % difference between desired and measured wot AFR's. Hope this helped.

When I did my MAF Cal I changed the OL portion of the MAF Table (2.6V to 5V), I wasn't thinking. This affects the AFR at WOT, duh. So I need to go back and compare the actual AFR with the "Fuel OL/WOT Commanded EQ (No Knock)" table, and then adjust the MAF Table accordingly. @rfinkle2 helped me with this, but it didn't sink in. I'm a little slow, lol.