2010+ Mazdaspeed 3, I recommend to monitor your fuel pumps closely

[PapaSmurf]

Nataphen, throw Autotech internals in the OP, we got a couple people running them now with solid datalogs.

[duappleganger]

If I get the Cobb AP will they eventually release new firmware making it compatible with my 2011 genpu?

[inglouriousbasterd]

Originally Posted by surebOOst I just bought a 2010 ms3 used of course with 13k miles on it. To my knowledge the car only has a cobb sf intake but I haven't been able to get under it for a better look. Anyway I was drivin up an onramp the other day and was in 3rd gear very close to WOT and had a very short but very abrupt cut in power then a second later the it spooled back up and was running fine. I drove it hard the past couple days trying to duplicae the issue but haven't so far. Talked to a friend and he said that it sounded like a fuel cut. Im not completely sure what it was but I would appreciate suggestions for data logging systems or software!

i thought i was done with fuel cut when I sold my last dsm!

[dizzydtrain]

Anyone ever had any fuel drops with upgraded internals or the cp-e fuel pump? I did a log yesterday and today on my AP and saw my fp drop to 1427 and 15xxx today. I do have the upgraded cp-e fuel pump as well as a tmic and SRI.

I recently did change my map when i went from a Corksport SRI to a CP-e intake--even with the CS intake the fp was in the mid 1600's and maxed out at mid 1700's. It seems a bit low to me compared to some other logs.

I will keep monitoring over the next couple of days.

[indianaryan]

That doesn't seem right. Has the weather been any different since you had the CS on?

[dizzydtrain]

Funny thing is that it's been getting a little warmer here since I started logging with the cp-e intake and the new map. From what I understand the upgraded fuel pump should not be affected by the changes in climate, right?

Even so, the fuel pressure was nothing to write home about before. It didn't drop below 1600 but it didn't really shoot up to where most people seem to be logging their fp pressure.

haha at one point today I was so paranoid that I thought I may have inadvertently switched fuel pumps during install and put the stocker back in.

[rfinkle2]

Originally Posted by dizzydtrain Funny thing is that it's been getting a little warmer here since I started logging with the cp-e intake and the new map. From what I understand the upgraded fuel pump should not be affected by the changes in climate, right? Even so, the fuel pressure was nothing to write home about before. It didn't drop below 1600 but it didn't really shoot up to where most people seem to be logging their fp. haha at one point today I was so paranoid that I thought I may have inadvertently switched fuel pumps during install and put the stocker back in.

I have a cp-e pump also, and my fp's are no where near auto-tech's internals strength.

When Cp-e "bench tests" the pump, does anyone know what psi the pump is designed to hold?

[dizzydtrain]

Originally Posted by rfinkle2 I have a cp-e pump also, and my fp's are no where near auto-tech's internals strength. When Cp-e "bench tests" the pump, does anyone know what psi the pump is designed to hold?

That's a good question. I think my pump was tested and held around 16xx--I am talking about the certificate that was included with the pump. I will have to double check it when I get home to verify the actual number but I didn't really think anything of it when I first saw it.

[rfinkle2]

I'm going to edit this when I find it, but I see a potential issue here with the fueling targets with the gen2 ap..

i.e. the targeted fuel pressure from the ap is 1700psi.

from the datalogging guidelines of the gen2 ap
italic orange:
The WOT DI Fuel Pressure targets are ~1700psi.
http://accessecu.com/support/docs/su...0Guidance.html

[indianaryan]

Now the question is, did you send in the stock pump already. If so, what is CP-E going to do to resolve the issue? I'd be pissed if I paid what it costs to get a CP-E HPFP and put it on the car only to find out that there are fuel pressure drops below 1600.

[dizzydtrain]

Originally Posted by indianaryan Now the question is, did you send in the stock pump already. If so, what is CP-E going to do to resolve the issue? I'd be pissed if I paid what it costs to get a CP-E HPFP and put it on the car only to find out that there are fuel pressure drops below 1600.

I sent my pump back on Friday and I think it's supposed to be in their hands today.

Originally Posted by rfinkle2 I'm going to edit this when I find it, but I see a potential issue here with the fueling targets with the gen2 ap.. i.e. the targeted fuel pressure from the ap is 1700psi. fromo the datalogging guidelines of the gen2 ap italic orange: The WOT DI Fuel Pressure targets are ~1700psi. http://accessecu.com/support/docs/su...0Guidance.html

rfinkle, are you saying that the fp should be working properly but it's our cars ecu logic that is keeping the fuel pressure where it is now?

I am not very well versed in the new ecu logic but I do recall seeing Gen2's with similar mods who are experiencing fp in the 1800's.

[rfinkle2]

Originally Posted by indianaryan Now the question is, did you send in the stock pump already. If so, what is CP-E going to do to resolve the issue? I'd be pissed if I paid what it costs to get a CP-E HPFP and put it on the car only to find out that there are fuel pressure drops below 1600.

I have a concern with this also, but before we jump to conclusions, let me check with Christian as far as fuel targeting, and ask him to look @ dizzytrain's logs... I'm @ work now and don't have any of my logs available.

Originally Posted by dizzydtrain I sent my pump back on Friday and I think it's supposed to be in their hands today. rfinkle, are you saying that the fp should be working properly but it's our cars ecu logic that is keeping the fuel pressure where it is now? I am not very well versed in the new ecu logic but I do recall seeing Gen2's with similar mods who are experiencing fp in the 1800's.

No, the AP has full control of the targeted fuel pressures.

I am going to ask Christian what the AP commands and the discrepancies we are seeing between brands of internals and the Cp-e pump.

[dizzydtrain]

The "cpe log" is from this morning. Datalog4 is from last night where the pressure dropped to 1427 with the following mods: Cp-e SRI, CPe TMIC, and Cp-e medium pressure fuel pump.

I apologize about datalog4, while logging a state tropper appeared out of nowhere and scared the shit out of me.

[rfinkle2]

I pm'd Christian and asked him to please provide the answer to our questions in this thread.

[dizzydtrain]

Originally Posted by rfinkle2 I pm'd Christian and asked him to please provide the answer to our questions in this thread.

Thanks. I loaded both logs on here.

[dizzydtrain]

Not sure if this helps Christian or not--here is another log I just took during my lunch break. The temps were up to about 50 degrees here today and the fp does not drop below 1600 psi.

[Christian.]

I believe I have a good understanding as to what is being asked so I will chime in with some of my experiences in order to help explain some of what people are seeing.

First, I would like to explain some details as to how the CDFP (HPFP) works. As the name states (Camshaft Driven Fuel Pump), the pump's capacity to pump/pressurize fuel will increase with RPM. This is why you can see the stock CDFP start to lose pressure at lower RPM, but then build pressure back up at higher RPM...even at the same boost levels. This also explains why some pumps create more than the targeted ~1670psi of the stock calibration. You will also notice that if you let off of the throttle at higher RPM and go into deceleration conditions where the stock fuel injectors are effectively turned off...the DI fuel pressure will spike pretty high. The camshaft is still spinning, but fueling demands have gone way down. The stock fuel system simply does not have the ability to bleed off the excessive fuel under those conditions, so fuel pressure spikes. As long as this pressure does not exceed any safety factor or pressure threshold for a sensor, rail, seal, etc. ...then I would not be concerned. Below is the data content of HPFP Desired Pressure A table:

430.3	430.3	430.3	430.3	430.3	430.3	430.3	430.3	430.3	430.3	430.3	430.3	430.3	430.3	430.3
430.3	430.3	430.3	430.3	430.3	430.3	430.3	430.3	430.3	430.3	430.3	430.3	430.3	430.3	430.3
430.3	430.3	430.3	430.3	430.3	430.3	430.3	430.3	430.3	430.3	430.3	430.3	430.3	430.3	430.3
430.3	430.3	430.3	430.3	430.3	430.3	430.3	430.3	430.3	430.3	430.3	430.3	430.3	430.3	430.3
579.0	579.0	648.4	727.7	727.7	727.7	727.7	797.1	797.1	797.1	797.1	797.1	797.1	797.1	797.1
727.7	727.7	866.5	1015.3	1015.3	1015.3	1015.3	1015.3	1015.3	1164.0	1164.0	1164.0	1164.0	1164.0	1164.0
1015.3	1015.3	1164.0	1302.8	1302.8	1302.8	1302.8	1302.8	1302.8	1302.8	1302.8	1302.8	1302.8	1302.8	1302.8
1015.3	1015.3	1164.0	1451.5	1451.5	1520.9	1520.9	1520.9	1520.9	1520.9	1520.9	1520.9	1520.9	1520.9	1520.9
1015.3	1015.3	1164.0	1520.9	1520.9	1669.6	1669.6	1669.6	1669.6	1669.6	1669.6	1669.6	1669.6	1669.6	1669.6
1015.3	1015.3	1164.0	1669.6	1669.6	1669.6	1669.6	1669.6	1669.6	1669.6	1669.6	1669.6	1669.6	1669.6	1669.6
1015.3	1015.3	1164.0	1669.6	1669.6	1669.6	1669.6	1669.6	1669.6	1669.6	1669.6	1669.6	1669.6	1669.6	1669.6
1015.3	1015.3	1164.0	1669.6	1669.6	1669.6	1669.6	1669.6	1669.6	1669.6	1669.6	1669.6	1669.6	1669.6	1669.6
1015.3	1015.3	1164.0	1669.6	1669.6	1669.6	1669.6	1669.6	1669.6	1669.6	1669.6	1669.6	1669.6	1669.6	1669.6
1015.3	1015.3	1164.0	1669.6	1669.6	1669.6	1669.6	1669.6	1669.6	1669.6	1669.6	1669.6	1669.6	1669.6	1669.6
1015.3	1015.3	1164.0	1669.6	1669.6	1669.6	1669.6	1669.6	1669.6	1669.6	1669.6	1669.6	1669.6	1669.6	1669.6
1015.3	1015.3	1164.0	1669.6	1669.6	1669.6	1669.6	1669.6	1669.6	1669.6	1669.6	1669.6	1669.6	1669.6	1669.6
1015.3	1015.3	1164.0	1669.6	1669.6	1669.6	1669.6	1669.6	1669.6	1669.6	1669.6	1669.6	1669.6	1669.6	1669.6
1015.3	1015.3	1164.0	1669.6	1669.6	1669.6	1669.6	1669.6	1669.6	1669.6	1669.6	1669.6	1669.6	1669.6	1669.6
1015.3	1015.3	1164.0	1669.6	1669.6	1669.6	1669.6	1669.6	1669.6	1669.6	1669.6	1669.6	1669.6	1669.6	1669.6
1015.3	1015.3	1164.0	1669.6	1669.6	1669.6	1669.6	1669.6	1669.6	1669.6	1669.6	1669.6	1669.6	1669.6	1669.6
1015.3	1015.3	1164.0	1669.6	1669.6	1669.6	1669.6	1669.6	1669.6	1669.6	1669.6	1669.6	1669.6	1669.6	1669.6
1015.3	1015.3	1164.0	1669.6	1669.6	1669.6	1669.6	1669.6	1669.6	1669.6	1669.6	1669.6	1669.6	1669.6	1669.6
1015.3	1015.3	1164.0	1669.6	1669.6	1669.6	1669.6	1669.6	1669.6	1669.6	1669.6	1669.6	1669.6	1669.6	1669.6
1015.3	1015.3	1164.0	1669.6	1669.6	1669.6	1669.6	1669.6	1669.6	1669.6	1669.6	1669.6	1669.6	1669.6	1669.6

The higher capacity pumps simply exceed the ECU's ability to turn down the HPFP duty cycle or they are exceeding the fuel systems ability to return fuel back to the tank. This is nothing to be concerned about, but can explain why many are seeing higher than what is in the HPFP tables.

Secong, the ECU actually focuses on targeting the voltage that the HPFP sensor is reading...not the pressure. We simply took the stock HPFP sensor calibration settings and translated the voltage in the HPFP tables to show pressure values instead of voltage. We felt that may be a bit easier for users to work with. As we continue to push these platforms, we may switch back to displaying voltage so that higher reading HPFP sensors can be installed and the HPFP voltage will be shown for targeting DI fuel pressure. This should allow any compatible DI fuel pressure senor to be used.

If we switch AccessTUNER back to displaying the native value (voltage), then we will be sure to provide an updated Tuning Guide Worksheet that helps explain what pressure the DI fuel pressure sensor voltage represents for the various sensors that we find work well (likely the stock unit and one aftermarket unit that ready up to ~3600psi). That should be sufficiently high for now.

My question to the community, is this acceptable?

Please let me know if this helps explain what some of you may be seeing, and if you have any additional questions or concerns?

Take care,
Christian.

[rfinkle2]

@Christian,

First and foremost, thanks you for providing a very detailed answer we can all understand.

I think an excellent example of our question is dizzytrain's log above (datalog4), specifically line#42.

post #213

[dizzydtrain]

Originally Posted by rfinkle2 @Christian, First and foremost, thanks you for providing a very detailed answer we can all understand. I think an excellent example of our question is dizzytrain's log above (datalog4), specifically line#42. post #213

As rfinkle mentioned, thanks a lot for clarifying. He also already posed the question we both had regarding the dip in pressure as datalog4 shows.

[Snotrocket]

So i've been running CS SRI, TIH, Catless Turbo back exhaust for about 3 months last summer prior to doing much research. I had made a poor assumption that intake and exhaust was very non invasive and wouldnt cause me any issues. After doing many hours of reading on here i have become quite a bit more informed.

Here is my question... I did some data logging today and no surprise my stock FP is cutting out hard at WOT which is concerning as i drove the car pretty hard at the end of last summer at the track ect.... Is there any permanent damage i may have caused internally that i may have to deal with in the near future or am i just lucky that i didnt blow up? Is there anything i should do outside of installing my autotech internals?

Logs attached arnt great as i let off when fuel began to cut out.

And my LTFT are looking way off also...

[rfinkle2]

Originally Posted by Snotrocket So i've been running CS SRI, TIH, Catless Turbo back exhaust for about 3 months last summer prior to doing much research. I had made a poor assumption that intake and exhaust was very non invasive and wouldnt cause me any issues. After doing many hours of reading on here i have become quite a bit more informed. Here is my question... I did some data logging today and no surprise my stock FP is cutting out hard at WOT which is concerning as i drove the car pretty hard at the end of last summer at the track ect.... Is there any permanent damage i may have caused internally that i may have to deal with in the near future or am i just lucky that i didnt blow up? Is there anything i should do outside of installing my autotech internals? Logs attached arnt great as i let off when fuel began to cut out. And my LTFT are looking way off also...

I am by no means an expert, but like you, have tried to do as much reading as possible and notice a few things in your favor...

- you recognize the need for a fuel pump (and likely will take it easy with the mods you have until you aquire one)
- your ltft's aren't that far from the acceptable (not optimal) +/- 8%
- your afr's are rich... which usually ensures relative safety
- you have no knock (in this log)
- the damage I've seen done to the gen1's is noticeable through the clutch pedal (i.e. bent rod), and I'm assuming you feel nothing strange as far as vibrations in the clutch from your post.



Of course, your questions are good, and I'd like to hear an expert opinion also.

[Snotrocket]

Im not experiencing any unusual vibrations...

I am running the stage 0 map on the AP and just had my cel come back on with a P0139.. Going to get a new bung welded in this week in hopes to fix that problem also.

The LTFT are in the 8.5 - 9.3 range.. is that not bad?

[rfinkle2]

Originally Posted by Snotrocket Im not experiencing any unusual vibrations... I am running the stage 0 map on the AP and just had my cel come back on with a P0139.. Going to get a new bung welded in this week in hopes to fix that problem also. The LTFT are in the 8.5 - 9.3 range.. is that not bad?

You may consider running the map whose maf is calibrated for the intake you have and MOST IMPORTANTLY take it easy.
According to Cobb, +/- 8.0 ltfts are acceptable, not optimal. For comparison purposes, I have seen threads with people mentioning their trims being as high as 20.

I think that there are others more qualified to answer in more detail and more technically, but I would be comfortable saying that if you continue taking it easy on your car, you would have likely been able to hear and feel catastrophic failure causing damage.

[dizzydtrain]

So I ran another log after work today--it's not the best, had to cut short at 5800 rpm and started at around 3200 rpm. I had another dip in fp pressure and compared it to log#4 attached above.

One thing that I did notice was that the pressure dip occurred between 4700rpm and 5200 rpm and then went right back up. I also did not realize that I was missing LTFT's in my logs and made sure to include those. They were below 4 for most the run and then at 0 starting at the fuel pressure dip and until it recovered.

Not sure what is going on with it but I am having a hard time even noticing that dip during the pulls, there does not seem to a quick loss in power like i experienced with the stock fp.

[indianaryan]

Have you contacted cp-e? I talked to them and was told that the fp should never drop below 1667.5 psi at wot. It sounds like they sent you a dud if it's dropping that low. Makes me think twice about getting a cp-e hpfp now.

[wolly6973]

I have noticed that, in general, the CP-E pumps don't seem to hold as high a pressure as others.
That is part of the reason, along with the initial cost, delays in getting the core refund, and lack of availability, that I have chosen to just purchase internals

[dizzydtrain]

I sent them an email yesterday informing them of my issue but I have not heard back yet. I think I will call them up today but they tend to take about 1 business day to get back to people with questions.

I will keep people posted with what's going on with the issue. Really was looking forward to just driving my car around without having to baby it because of fuel pressure,etc.

[rfinkle2]

Snotrocket:

I was thinking about your issue last night, and I think the best tune to run, until you can get a fuel pump and a cat reinstalled is the stage2 safe mode map designed for the Corksport intake.

The exact map is named "Stage2+CS+TIH 91 BT Safe Mode"

CobbTuning.com - '10 MS3 AccessPORT

The maf calibration is designed to work with your intake, that should help your trims, and the boost targets are around 14psi.

As you know, taking it easy on the pedal is the key to your engines safety until you get it all straightened out.

Best of luck.

[Snotrocket]

Originally Posted by rfinkle2 Snotrocket: I was thinking about your issue last night, and I think the best tune to run, until you can get a fuel pump and a cat reinstalled is the stage2 safe mode map designed for the Corksport intake. The exact map is named "Stage2+CS+TIH 91 BT Safe Mode" CobbTuning.com - '10 MS3 AccessPORT The maf calibration is designed to work with your intake, that should help your trims, and the boost targets are around 14psi. As you know, taking it easy on the pedal is the key to your engines safety until you get it all straightened out. Best of luck.

Hey thats a good thought for sure.. I had a look for a map like that yesterday and they havent yet released any stage 2 maps...

[rfinkle2]

cobbtuning.com > click ap > calibrations tab > cs intake > stage 2 safe mode map

[spoof3r]

How difficult is it to install the CPe fuel pump? Looks like I really need to get one of these. I've done my SRI/TIP, exhaust, etc. in the past, but don't know how much this installs entails.

Also, it appears that the CPe fuel pumps are ~$300 after a refund for your stock fuel pump? Am I reading things correctly or am I just crazy?

I'm hoping AP releases Stage2 here shortly.

[indianaryan]

I wish they were only $300. The $395 core charge is on top of the price of the CP-E HPFP, which is $667. You'll end up paying over $1000 up front, and you'll get $395 back when you send your old pump in.

[dizzydtrain]

Originally Posted by spoof3r How difficult is it to install the CPe fuel pump? Looks like I really need to get one of these. I've done my SRI/TIP, exhaust, etc. in the past, but don't know how much this installs entails. Also, it appears that the CPe fuel pumps are ~$300 after a refund for your stock fuel pump? Am I reading things correctly or am I just crazy? I'm hoping AP releases Stage2 here shortly.

Follow these two threads and you should get the hang of it. It's pretty straight forward.

need help with cp-e fuel pump install
CDFP internals upgrade

[dizzydtrain]

Originally Posted by spoof3r How difficult is it to install the CPe fuel pump? Looks like I really need to get one of these. I've done my SRI/TIP, exhaust, etc. in the past, but don't know how much this installs entails. Also, it appears that the CPe fuel pumps are ~$300 after a refund for your stock fuel pump? Am I reading things correctly or am I just crazy? I'm hoping AP releases Stage2 here shortly.

Yes, it's pricey but you have to keep in mind that cp-e does include a lifetime warranty on any issues that may arise and that it's a simple swap for the stocker instead of having to change out the internals for the pump.

I went with cp-e for the peace of mind of having the warranty and their quality in general but I am a bit weary now with my recent drop in pressure and I am curious how this will be handled by cp-e.

[indianaryan]

Originally Posted by dizzydtrain Yes, it's pricey but you have to keep in mind that cp-e does include a lifetime warranty on any issues that may arise and that it's a simple swap for the stocker instead of having to change out the internals for the pump. I went with cp-e for the peace of mind of having the warranty and their quality in general but I am a bit weary now with my recent drop in pressure and I am curious how this will be handled by cp-e.

Your situation scares me, because if anyone has to send in the CP-E pump for a replacement, and you've already sent in the stock pump, you're screwed. I imagine that CP-E has to run tests on the pump and it could be weeks before you can drive the car again. It almost makes you consider keeping the stock pump for this reason. I hope CP-E takes care of this for you. Keep us updated.

[dizzydtrain]

Originally Posted by indianaryan Your situation scares me, because if anyone has to send in the CP-E pump for a replacement, and you've already sent in the stock pump, you're screwed. I imagine that CP-E has to run tests on the pump and it could be weeks before you can drive the car again. It almost makes you consider keeping the stock pump for this reason. I hope CP-E takes care of this for you. Keep us updated.

Yeah tell me about it. This is my dd and the only reason why i went with cp-e is peace of mind. I am not jumping to conclusions yet but I have not heard back from them yet. I will pm them as well.

I got a chance to take a look at the certificate of bench test that they did. The number indicated 1513 cubic centimeters of volume.

[bertrand_CX_7]

Originally Posted by dizzydtrain Follow these two threads and you should get the hang of it. It's pretty straight forward. need help with cp-e fuel pump install CDFP internals upgrade

Yeah, you just need a good tutorial and little guidance it's pretty straight forward. If I can do it, yes you can :LOL:

Originally Posted by dizzydtrain the only reason why i went with cp-e is peace of mind. I am not jumping to conclusions yet but I have not heard back from them yet.

The same thing with me. Lifetime warranty is really awesome for this little heart. If something happen to go wrong just sent it back and make sure to retest it completly when it comes back. When taking decision I always go worst case scenario. It'll be a big lost if you fuck up with those internals. Don't even think about the consequences on your engine if you don't catch it earlier during monitoring.

New car (sorry new unpaid loan), peace of mind, less hassle and no troubles (need to go to work the next day, etc, etc). I'll give the new car a chance to survive a potential engine failure due to defective fuel pump. I'll not look at the $300 I'm spending now. It's not even worth it.

[dizzydtrain]

So I flashed the car back to stock to see if there are any fuel pressure drops with my current mods and there aren't really any. The pump is above 1650 during wot and even goes up to 1700+, not sure if there is a problem with running the 93 cp-e map with my current mods.

Sander has me taking some logs for him over the next couple of days and I will continue to take a few more to determine if another drop occurs.

I sent another pm to Christian as well to see if he has any input since the issue might be with the map I am using.

[bertrand_CX_7]

Just loged my first data today at WOT after the new HPFP was in. Need to baby the car a little bit just to make sure the pump is operating correctly.

Ambient temp was around 72 -80 degrees. Almost at every run I'm seeing Knock Retards and Boost spikes up to 18+ PSI. Don't know if the boost spike is OK tho for stage1 93 + stock pump and stock intake.


Could you guys take a look and drop some comments. Thanks in advance

Apparently FP values seems to be OK. Didn't notice any drop below 1600 PSI at WOT. Sorry guys, didn't get the LF RF FT this time. I'm still messing around with the AP. I missed to log them.

Do I need to set which PIDs to log each time I'm plugging this AP? Because before I started to log today, It was showing "logging" on the fuel trims. It seems to not have saved my PIDS logging preferences after I unplug the AP, this is just my guest... usually when I get to work, I unplug the AP before pluging it back on my way back to work.


Also was reading the Alpha threads with some posts regarding Knock Retards but there was no final statement on that. Just that other ppl said It can be normal. Any recommendation on the KR?



I almost missed the Fuel pressure drop in the datalog16 line 120. It's really not clear what's happening.

I just floor the car with 62.69 % throttle position but RPM was still falling until line 127 - 128. Don't know how to explain this (decreasing RPM but throttle response high).

Is that something to be concerned about since I'm not seeing the RPM increasing with WOT.

I'm confused here.

Thanks for any comments on the logs

[Roguevice]

I can vouch that the autotech internals are amazing. Holding 1800 around WOT all the way up to a max of 2000 psi. Very happy and great customer service.