The FAIL formerly known as "Dano's Drop-in Build"

[Dano]

So I guess I'll throw something together to chronicle my process on a drop in build. Not sure ATM how detailed I'll get or how informative this will end up being so stay tuned and we'll see what happens together.

So I knew I would approach a "build" like this for some time. I am not going for major HP or fame just want to keep my motor together for DD duties at 400-450WHP. Keeping it fun and on the edge of a true DD which mine currently is. I would like to thank Tom @MS3-a(sore)ASS-rex, for even giving me the idea to do something like this. I haven't put a motor together since my 302 back ...well in the early 80's for god sake...lol

Also want to thank a couple of the MSF pioneers in this area @chimmike and @Tomas for their contribution to this type of build. I suspect it will become extremely common for those wanting a lil insurance by adding some forged internals to their DD and I know a few other drop-ins are under way or in the planning stages like this one. Only time will tell how successful this will be but of course other platforms have been doing it for ages so how hard can it be cough subie cough 99.5 drop ins for example..some of those guys don't even measure the bores for god sake...I call it poke and hope.

I wasn't in any particular hurry and thought my tune would keep things together but recently my motor had other plans and is likely an outlier as to how it decided to..well perform less than optimally. Long story short, I believe I have lost a ringland in the #3 cylinder with the details being discussed here:

How bad is this-Oil everywhere

So I already knew some of what I would need and so had a small list compiled of the following:

Wiseco pistons and their brother's K1 rods
I am also running OE VVT from 07 so I will replace all the timing stuff..including washers and bolts for cams and crank.
ARP head studs
the rest is all Mazda OEM stuff and I will compile and entire list as I go.

a shout out to @silvapain for his spreadsheet of OE parts and @phate for linking me to it.

I have access to quite a bit of cool measuring equip from my rat scoobie buddy who is about to build his motor such as a bore gauge, digital calipers, mic, fixed hones, etc. so I should be prepared.

I do plan to measure the bores and crank pins and if things are too far out...well depending on how far, I will pull the motor, send my Wiseco's back and maybe get some angry HCR pistons just b/c my motor hates me...gotta get even right?

anyway...that's all for now I'll update as things progress.

oh I did get these today complements of @eric@edgeautosport

cheap scale but they all weigh the same...pistons, pins and clips





they are not near as cool as Dan and Clints huh?

Build Tolerance Specs: Updated as the build progresses

Wiseco OE spec piston: PWC .0025 [I will target .0025 but if it gets out to .0030 I will live with it]
K1 Rod w ARP 2000: Torque to 25ft/lbs + 55*


Specialty Tools: Updated as the build progresses

Cam timing tools - Silvapain
Torque wrench [inch & ft lbs] - owned
Angle Gauge - Amazon Search
87.5mm ARP ring compressor ARP 901-8750 ARP Ring Compressors
Flex-Hone 89mm 320 grit - Amazon Search
Plateau Brush 3" - 3-1/2" Plateau Brush Explanation: Plateau Cylinder Bore Finishes

Lubes and Fluids:

Lucas assembly lube 4oz Lucas Oil 10152 Lucas Oil Assembly Lube
Lucas 30wt Break-in Oil 5qt Lucas Oil 10631 Lucas Oil High Zinc Engine Break-In Oils
+ 1qt of any 30wt dino oil
ATF for cylinder honing and wall cleaning/lubing for fast breakin



10/20/12 Update:

so before I was forced down the road of a build I wanted to find out just how much oil pressure there is at our turbo feed outlet in the block. I wanted to be able to measure pressure in 3 different configurations.

1) restricted to turbo and guage
2) unrestricted to turbo and gauge
3) unrestricted to gauge and restricted to turbo.

This allows me to monitor oil pressure for the experiment and keep a gauge connected afterward. I realize this may not be the best source of a pressure reading but as long as I have a baseline of now and after the motor is built I don't think it matters much.

Anyway, I put together a list of what I would need to accomplish this with some help from @Celestspeed3

Edit: 10/31/12 Updated graphic to include hose length modifications and additional fittings.



Parts links

4 An to M12x1 5 Straight Adapter Saab Volvo TD04L 1 5mm Oil Restrictor | eBay

Earl's 921104 Earl's Specialty Fittings

P.T.F.E.-Lined Stainless Steel Hose

JEGS Performance Products 100531 JEGS Fuel Pressure Gauge In-Line Adapter Fittings

Earl's 924104 Earl's Specialty Fittings

I may drill this 1.5mm fitting out so there is zero restriction. This way is cheaper than getting a $19 ATP open bolt.

Turbo Oil Feed Banjo Bolt Kit Garrett T25 T28 TB25 TB28 Journal Bearing | eBay

1mm restrictor banjo which is ~.040 - not quite as small as an ATP .035 but this is not rocket science.

Turbo Oil Feed Banjo Bolt Kit Garrett GT2871R GT2876R GT3071R Ball Bearing | eBay

I am going to get under the car today and get measurements to confirm my gestimates on SS line length and will update if necessary.

Pulled my belt tensioner off and inspected the area and everything should work as designed.

10/26/12 Update

More parts and tools acquired today:







11/21/12 Update

Job costing spreadsheet uploaded.

[phate]

Glad to see that you have access to the proper measuring equipment. That' my biggest fear with drop in builds, I think you'll be fine.

I used those same Wiseco's on the gray 6 and it runs like a champ.

I'll be following along

[helmetface]

<- raging boner

[Tokay444]

my time is coming...

[Dano]

Originally Posted by helmetface <- raging boner

hahah you're a young guy right...dick gets hard when the wind blows...ah...those days...lol

j/k man...I can't wait until my rods get here...<------see what I did there?

Originally Posted by Tokay444 my time is coming...

...says Mr. Consumption...Mr Oil Consumption...

[Downmented]

Dope, im glad to see more of these popping up. Subbd for results. Good luck

Sent from my GT-P3113 using Tapatalk 2

[Tokay444]

yup. don't want to face it, but there is no choice.
i may as well go bnr while i'm at it.

[Chimmike]

Do it to it! Mine's still running great!


Sent from my iPhone your mom's face

[Dano]

BTW. talked to Andy at Wiseco today and he says the PWC is already built into their drop-in pistons and indicated I only needed a .0025 PWC measured at the skirt for turbo induction...that sounds tight to me. I do know Manley and Wiseco's for the scoobies at 99.5 call for .0035

what say the experts?

@phate
@silvapain
@Tomas
@djuosnteisn
@SPEED6 KILLAH

[phate]

Originally Posted by Dano BTW. talked to Andy at Wiseco today and he says the PWC is already built into their drop-in pistons and indicated I only needed a .0025 PWC measured at the skirt for turbo induction...that sounds tight to me. I do know Manley and Wiseco's for the scoobies at 99.5 ask for .0035-.0040. what say the experts? @phate @silvapain @Tomas @djuosnteisn @SPEED6 KILLAH

Seems tight to me. My pistons spec is .0035" PWC.

[Dano]

Originally Posted by phate Seems tight to me. My pistons spec is .0035" PWC.

I thought as much. no sheet came with the pistons.

[phate]

Originally Posted by Dano I thought as much. no sheet came with the pistons.

So I was thinking about my new pistons when I said .0035....I think I still have the sheet for those same pistons you have, let me go check.

[Dano]

the sheet that came with Pablo's pistons, in silvapain's thread, say .0035

Stated at the top of the piston pic

I think ring gaps will be different with the HCR pistons but I can't believe the PWC would be.

[phate]

This sheet is the spec for standard bore pistons exactly like yours Dano. They're what I used in the gray 6's engine.

.0030" PWC

[Snyeed]

Good luck Mr. Dano, I see something like this in my future.
Defiantly keep this thread updated.

[Tomas]

Originally Posted by Dano BTW. talked to Andy at Wiseco today and he says the PWC is already built into their drop-in pistons and indicated I only needed a .0025 PWC measured at the skirt for turbo induction...that sounds tight to me. I do know Manley and Wiseco's for the scoobies at 99.5 call for .0035 what say the experts? @phate @silvapain @Tomas @djuosnteisn @SPEED6 KILLAH

Dood. I don't think that 0.001" difference is really that critical. I'd go for 0.0035 for safety but I wouldn't sweat it if after a hone you only get 0.0025.

If I had to choose between honing the liners a further 0.001" afer a light hone to bring the PWC from 0.0025 to 0.0035 and leaving it a 0.0025 I would leave it. Honing that 0.02mm by hand with a drill or whatever won't be very accurate. Better just leave it alone before you fuck up something. That's just my opinion. Picking up that 0.02mm difference in the bore is already hard enough with gauges going only 2 metric decimals.

[atvfreek]

Love it! I will be tuned in as well.

[Dano]

Originally Posted by Tomas Dood. I don't think that 0.001" difference is really that critical. I'd go for 0.0035 for safety but I wouldn't sweat it if after a hone you only get 0.0025. If I had to choose between honing the liners 0.001" to bring the PWC from 0.0025 to 0.0035 and leaving it a 0.0025 I would leave it. Honing that 0.02mm by hand with a drill or whatever won't be very accurate. Better just leave it alone before you fuck up something. That's just my opinion. Picking up that 0.02mm difference in the bore is already hard enough with gauges going only 2 metric decimals.

totally agree...been there done that with my buddy's EJ25...a 240 grit hone will leave the walls rough enough to make .001x worth of variance in the measurements. only when you get to 500 grit can you really begin to measure down to .000x

he does have a super fly adjustable fixed hone but I wouldn't even consider doing that with a drop in. to much lubricant pouring over the crank for a clean install.

Originally Posted by phate This sheet is the spec for standard bore pistons exactly like yours Dano. They're what I used in the gray 6's engine. .0030" PWC

cool...so I will hope for a .0030 PWC but won't cry if its as much as .0035. does that sound good?

BTW did any of the drop in guys even measure what the PWC is on a motor with wear? I am thinking it would be on the big side but really have no idea.

Edit:

oh and @Tomas...me an my buddy ruined his case halves...lol went too far with the honing trying to remove taper and out of roundness...like you say...it is a bitch with hand held tools.

here's the hone.

[SPEED6 KILLAH]

Which piston are you running custom?

[Dano]

Originally Posted by SPEED6 KILLAH Which piston are you running custom?

nah...just OE 9.5.1 std bore K640M875

[SPEED6 KILLAH]

Okay I'll go with .0025 nice and tight there a reason behind it..

[Dano]

Originally Posted by SPEED6 KILLAH Okay I'll go with .0025 nice and tight there a reason behind it..

interesting...that's what the Wiseco guy said...care to share that reason with the rest of the class?

skirt coating will wear off ?

[TiGraySpeed6]

good luck with the build!
I'm looking forward to watching this one

[Tomas]

Originally Posted by SPEED6 KILLAH Okay I'll go with .0025 nice and tight there a reason behind it..

Because you don't want that shit to feel like you are throwing a hot dog down the hallway?
I know all about that.

Originally Posted by Dano interesting...that's what the Wiseco guy said...care to share that reason with the rest of the class? skirt coating will wear off ?

No. The skirt coating is not supposed to wear off.
And that hone you posted earlier, it's heavy enough to bend the shit out of the oil squirters. Make sure you put some masking tape on the shaft to mark how deep you can go before colliding with the tubes.

Edit: hmmm. I think you are gonna have to bend the oil squirters anyway but that does not mean you should do it by slamming the honing stones on them. lol

[mrmonk7663]

Good luck with the build @Dano. Would you mind linking the referenced spreadsheet here for the rest of us? Thanks!!!

[Dano]

Originally Posted by Tomas Because you don't want that shit to feel like you are throwing a hot dog down the hallway? I know all about that. No. The skirt coating is not supposed to wear off. And that hone you posted earlier, it's heavy enough to bend the shit out of the oil squirters. Make sure you put some masking tape on the shaft to mark how deep you can go before colliding with the tubes. Edit: hmmm. I think you are gonna have to bend the oil squirters anyway but that does not mean you should do it by slamming the honing stones on them. lol

word on the squinter bending method, but reading fail for u...I will NOT use that hone in my block...it is the exact hone my buddy used to ruin his ej25 case halves...lol

not that it is a bad hone...it will def take some material off quickly but you have to pay attention and step down to the clearance you want. I now think of it more like a hand held boring tool

kinda like Wiseco says...

• Install and torque main bearing caps
• Use torque plates. This simulates the distortion that occurs when the
cylinder head is mounted to the block. (hint: After boring and honing, leave
the torque plates in place and fit/gap the piston rings to their respective
cylinders.)
• Allow for a minimum of .003" excess material for use as honing stock.
• Intermediate hone to within .0005" of finished size with #220-#280 grit
stones. (With diamond stones use #280-#400 grit.)
• Finish hone with #400 grit stone or higher. (Use #600 grit diamond stone.
If using hand operated equipment, set drill speed between 200-450 rpm.)
• Finish with an appropriate stone or tool to achieve desired plateau finish
(see below).

I will use a brush hone and put an exact 20-25* cross hatch in that bitch.

...or at least that is my plan for now and I am all ears to any better ideas.

Originally Posted by Tomas Make sure you put some masking tape on the shaft to mark how deep you can go before colliding with the tubes.

Fallopian tubes..ok never thought about that....

[MS3-a(sore)ASS-rex]

Good luck Dano. I can't wait for another one of these swaps to be successful!

I've been trying to start my own build but my car has been very uncooperative.

[silvapain]

Originally Posted by phate Seems tight to me. My pistons spec is .0035" PWC.

Same here. 0.0035" PWC on my sheet. My machinist said my new block was dead-on with the PWC clearance, and he didn't have to hone/bore it at all. Wiseco knew my block was brand new when they made the pistons.

[silvapain]

@Dano, when you time the engine, be sure to double-check #1 TDC; don't trust the crank locking pin stuck in the side of the block. I don't know if you saw the MCY degree wheel in my build thread, and how far the pin was off TDC (~7°).

[rfinkle2]

Over my head, but rootin' for you nonetheless.

You are going to run the 3071 with this fresh engine?

[Dano]

Originally Posted by silvapain @Dano, when you time the engine, be sure to double-check #1 TDC; don't trust the crank locking pin stuck in the side of the block. I don't know if you saw the MCY degree wheel in my build thread, and how far the pin was off TDC (~7°).

lol I did see your cock wheel but have no idea how to use one of those...nor do I know how to use a degree wheel but I suppose I could read up.

Originally Posted by rfinkle2 Over my head, but rootin' for you nonetheless. You are going to run the 3071 with this fresh engine?

yessir...the GT28 is cursed

I mean it will make a great turbo for someone else just not me....that chapter is closed.

[Dano]

Originally Posted by phate This sheet is the spec for standard bore pistons exactly like yours Dano. They're what I used in the gray 6's engine. .0030" PWC

Originally Posted by SPEED6 KILLAH Okay I'll go with .0025 nice and tight there a reason behind it..

Originally Posted by silvapain Same here. 0.0035" PWC on my sheet. My machinist said my new block was dead-on with the PWC clearance, and he didn't have to hone/bore it at all. Wiseco knew my block was brand new when they made the pistons.

hahah this is why this project will be fun. Ask 3 guys what the PWC should be and get 3 different answers...lol

Wiseco and Pablo both state .0025 for the OE spec pistons
Phate's sheet from Wiseco states .0030 for the OE spec pistons
SilvaPain is running HCR pistons which could generate more heat and so they are speced at .0035

my plan will be to target .0025 and if it is as big as .0030 I will live with it. Some piston slap, if it would even occur, never killed anyone.

OP updated with this information.

[phate]

Originally Posted by Dano lol I did see your cock wheel but have no idea how to use one of those...nor do I know how to use a degree wheel but I suppose I could read up.

It's really easy, lol. I now have a real degree wheel and TDC stop if you would like to borrow it.

[silvapain]

Originally Posted by Dano lol I did see your cock wheel but have no idea how to use one of those...nor do I know how to use a degree wheel but I suppose I could read up. yessir...the GT28 is cursed I mean it will make a great turbo for someone else just not me....that chapter is closed.

Clint was the one who knew his shit on the degree wheel.

Once you have the head on and bolted down, get an long M14 x 1.25 bolt and thread it down into the #1 plug well. No need to torque it down; just thread it in by hand. Put the degree wheel on a use a coat hanger or welding wire to be a pointer for the wheel; we used a coat hanger wrapped around the bolts for the alternator. Then rotate the crank very slowly until the piston just touches the bolt, and mark the wheel. Then rotate the crank in the opposite direction until the piston just touches the bolt again, and mark that point. You will end up with to markings at different places on the wheel. Then split the angle between the two in half, and that's TDC. Take the bolt out and rotate the crank until the pointer hits the TDC line, and you're at TDC for piston #1 .

P.S. You let me know when you want to sell me that GT28

[rfinkle2]

I want to come down to Ill. and learn how to build an engine for chrissake.

All of this TDC pin talk and degree wheels has me feeling a dunce.

I'm half tempted to blow my own shit up so I have to learn to build a motor.

[silvapain]

Originally Posted by rfinkle2 I want to come down to Ill. and learn how to build an engine for chrissake. All of this TDC pin talk and degree wheels has me feeling a dunce. I'm half tempted to blow my own shit up so I have to learn to build a motor.

You come down here and help me vinyl wrap my car and we have a deal.

[Dano]

Originally Posted by phate It's really easy, lol. I now have a real degree wheel and TDC stop if you would like to borrow it.

Um a hell to the yes is my answer if timing works out so that you don't need it for a week. I also need to source the timing plate as well. Maybe u have that too?

DJ has one too so I should be able to get one somewhere on here.

Maybe I'll just buy one IDK.


Tappin

[silvapain]

Originally Posted by Dano Um a hell to the yes is my answer if timing works out so that you don't need it for a week. I also need to source the timing plate as well. Maybe u have that too? DJ has one too so I should be able to get one somewhere on here. Maybe I'll just buy one IDK. Tappin

I have a full timing tool kit I can mail down to you. I just need it back in time for Clint's engine build.

[Deldran]

Originally Posted by silvapain You come down here and help me vinyl wrap my car and we have a deal.

Gold?

[MS3-a(sore)ASS-rex]

Originally Posted by rfinkle2 I want to come down to Ill. and learn how to build an engine for chrissake. All of this TDC pin talk and degree wheels has me feeling a dunce. I'm half tempted to blow my own shit up so I have to learn to build a motor.

I will gladly trade engines with you if you're really feeling that intrigued....lol