Mikey's mzr build saga

[mikey27]

Decided to start a build thread. It would have been pretty short and boring originally, but it has turned into quite the saga, so I decided I would share. Some things could likely help others looking to build.

Backstory.
Back in December (a few days before Christmas), I had catastrophic failure on the highway. I was on it hard, and without warning it let go.
The aftermath...


So, from what I can tell, piston #1 let go, then the rod did it's thing breaking everything else.

But as you can tell, this literally scrapped everything on my motor. Head might live another day sometime, but it bent the valve, and put a few good gouges in it. The kicker is the oil pump. That, I was not expecting.

Anyway, the day it blew I started the search for a long block. My plan was to get a complete running motor with similar mileage, drop in some forged pistons, and h-beam rods, and do the standard stuff while I was in there. All in all a good weekend and it would have been built.

Finding one was not easy, nor cheap. Best I found at a yard was 2700. I knew a local guy that has a small shop, but a bunch of speeds, called him up and to my luck (at the time) he had one that he was about to drop into a speed3 ready to go. Compression was around 180 across the board, with little deviation (cyl 1 was down a little, but not much). For the small cost of 2300 I bought it. I was a little disappointed to find he had actually stripped everything off of it (coils, turbo, oil lines, alternator, Ps pump, a/c, etc.), but I looked past that at this point.

The time came, and I got down to tearing down and preparing to build. I had wiseco pistons, and manly rods, as well as the whole timing kit, and bearings. I start pulling pistons, and then my heart sank. This is what I found.

Cyl 3, cracked sleeve. I may have had a slightly earlier indication, because I planned to do a leak down, but I forgot I was working on a di engine, and when I put the tester on I had already pulled the rail and injectors(idiot), so it never happened.

I call the guy I got the motor from and gave him the bad news. He said he would find me another bare block to replace it. Great. Well, ok. Good it would be useable, but shitty that I would now have to swap a lot of things I didn't plan to remove, nor had gaskets for. Whatever, I moved forward. I asked if he had a bore gauge to get an idea of condition of the replacement, but he didn't have one, and his shop is a few hours away for me.

He dropped off a block at the place I am building my motor, and when measured it was a huge disappointment. Cylinders 1&4 were acceptable with being ~.005-.001 out of round, but 2&3, especially (I believe) 2, was like nothing I've ever seen. It was .001 SMALLER than a stock piston in one direction, and .006 bigger in the other. This block was so unbelievably warped, if would never work with a stock, or stock sized piston. It would probably be fine to go to 88mm though.


Not going to work.
I start loosing some cooperation with the guy I bought the motor from, because of his friend that does some work at his shop. I'm really not sure what sparked this, but it almost seemed like he was implying the warped block was normal to me, and that any engine being built needs to be 88mm.
Granted that's not entirely incorrect, truly to do it right, you'd be hard pressed to find a block that wasn't brand new that gave you correct ptw clearance. But that wasn't what I planned. I knew it would be around .005" ptw, and I was okay with that. That's what my old block measured out to be, and even the one that had a cracked sleeve still had okay ptw with stock sized pistons.

I have had my eye on a member here's sale thread. In fact I had already bought a few things from him. It seemed he had just what I needed. A block, already bored to 88mm, 4032 pistons fitted to that block, and a keyed crank. Unfortunately with a $2k us price tag, I simply could not afford it. I waited, and others had interest. It almost sold, but then it was found that the ptw clearance was out of spec. It didn't seem all that bad to me, and with the reduced price tag it was within my reach now. I decided to take the gamble and bought it. I'm glad I opted to not take the crank, it would have been a fortune to ship. I figured it would cost less to get mine machined locally, than to ship one already done.

At this point I realize (actually before this), that this build is not going to be a quick one. Conceding to that, I now decide it's getting built right, and no longer rushed. A put my old sweet ride back on the road (after sitting to rot for over a year) so I had something to drive in the meantime.
So now having all the pieces, I send everything to get balanced. I had the crank get keyed first as well. Well, more bad luck.

While trying to broach the key way, the shop broke both my gears...great.
The harmonic was fine, but the gears were so hard and brittle, they just cracked before the broach could cut. I'm not convinced they didn't do something wrong whilst doing this, because many have had this done, and I have not heard of anyone having this happen.
They tell me the only way to cut them is with edm, which they can't do.

So now I have to find some new gears, and someone with an edm machine that can do it. I have both figured out, and they should get done this week now.

This brings me to the final wtf on this build (at this current time). Once I got everything back from balancing, I begin file fitting the rings.
I check and install the 3 piece oil ring, then I get to the scraper. Grind it to the correct clearance, then install it on the first piston. Something doesn't seem right. It's snug in the ring groove. Check the top ring, it's not sung, but it has no clearance. I now find out I have the first batch of sp63's 4032 pistons, that were faulty, and came with no clearance for the rings. I really don't understand how a company could send a product like this out, and once learning of the critical defect, not recall the bad product. But alass I now have this, and I need a solution. Best I can do is have the rings ground to give the correct clearance. I am thinking a surface grinder is the only real way to attain this, but I really don't know. I've never in my life had this kind of issue.

That brings me to current day. I'll keep adding to this, and hopefully soon have a complete build.

Reserved.

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Reserved.

Sent from my SM-G900W8 using Tapatalk

[BN00249]

That is quite the roller coaster of shitty luck you've had with your build.
Speedperformance wont exchange your pistons?
I am far from an engine builder but I do work in automotive machining as a supplier for transmission shafts. Extreme tight tolerances are the norm for me. I can understand how someone made a batch of pistons with an undersized groove width. But not offering a recall or anything is kinda bs. I would personally discourage grinding rings to fit pistons. Just seems to me it may affect the reliability of the build. Again I'm not an engine builder but I'm thinking modifying your rings might not be a good idea.


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[mikey27]

Originally Posted by BN00249 That is quite the roller coaster of shitty luck you've had with your build. Speedperformance wont exchange your pistons? I am far from an engine builder but I do work in automotive machining as a supplier for transmission shafts. Extreme tight tolerances are the norm for me. I can understand how someone made a batch of pistons with an undersized groove width. But not offering a recall or anything is kinda bs. I would personally discourage grinding rings to fit pistons. Just seems to me it may affect the reliability of the build. Again I'm not an engine builder but I'm thinking modifying your rings might not be a good idea. Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

I haven't had good luck with sp63 thus far, but I can't say they have refused to replace them yet, because I have not contacted them about it yet. They couldn't even provide proper ptw clearance specs when I asked, and there is lots of mixed info on who even manufactures them.

The really shitty thing is all the pistons, wrist pins, and rings have been wpc treated, and balanced. So I would be throwing a lot away if I abandoned them at this point.

Other issue is being in Canada. It would probably be months before I have them in hand. I think sp63's timeframe is 2 weeks for these, because they are custom order. Plus another 1-2 to get them here. Never mind the border headache.

There's another member who built with these exact pistons, with the same defect. The machine shop shaved his rings, and it has run strong.
We're talking very, very little. Clearance is only .0005"-.002" in that direction. I'd be removing .001"-.0012" of material.
The process to do so is a little iffy though. I'm not sure how well a ring will hold in a mag vice of a surface grinder. Another option is by hand on a surface plate, but I don't like the potential for uneven removal. Building motors isn't foreign to me, but this type of circumstance certainly is.

I'm awaiting a bit of guidance from the fellow members experience, he is going to try to find out exactly what went on when they built his motor. It's over in the "let's talk about forged pistons" thread. I'm trying to not continue to clutter it with obscure stuff.

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[mikey27]

Well crap, my reserved posts didn't work. Stupid crapatalk.
I would like to add this here, in reference to my ring groove clearance problem.
BIG thanks to @sailnaked6842; for this information, this is why I love the forums, and the community of knowledge.

[BN00249]

Well that's good. Was going to ask if you were able to attain the groove widths and was going to offer that I could potentially borrow your set and have them checked on a CMM.
Just so you know exact width within a couple microns.


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[mikey27]

Originally Posted by BN00249 Well that's good. Was going to ask if you were able to attain the groove widths and was going to offer that I could potentially borrow your set and have them checked on a CMM. Just so you know exact width within a couple microns. Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Hey a local!
Thanks for the offer, but I don't think that level of precision is necessary for this. .0001 on the micrometer should do it.

I ended up making a jig to hold the rings so I can lap them on a surface plate. Had time to do a scraper ring, and it worked perfectly, even material removal, and not an excessive amount of work.

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[sheston]

I think that the most damage I've seen. Looking thru the pictures, I thought, that can't be the wrist pin! Looks like it was. How does that shatter

Good luck with the rest of the build. I think you've had enough bad luck so far

[mikey27]

So, been a little while since I posted. Here's a little update.

This is the jig I made up to lap each ring. Not exactly the size I would have chosen had I had the choice, but that's the martial I had to work with. Ended up working great.

Checking everything to make sure it's in spec, clearances are perfect.

Finally assembled, much more work than it should have been.

This is an interesting one. Had two pumps, and neither were perfect. Hell of a lot of marks. But I have to say, I looked at a friend of mines, and it was fucked. Check your oil pumps if you're in there, you may be surprised.

Bottom end fully assembled and ready to go. Time to focus on the top end.


I decided to have both the head and intake manifold ported while I'm at it. Should get them back this week.

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[sangell]

Originally Posted by mikey27 So, been a little while since I posted. Here's a little update. This is the jig I made up to lap each ring. Not exactly the size I would have chosen had I had the choice, but that's the martial I had to work with. Ended up working great. Checking everything to make sure it's in spec, clearances are perfect. Finally assembled, much more work than it should have been. This is an interesting one. Had two pumps, and neither were perfect. Hell of a lot of marks. But I have to say, I looked at a friend of mines, and it was fucked. Check your oil pumps if you're in there, you may be surprised. Bottom end fully assembled and ready to go. Time to focus on the top end. I decided to have both the head and intake manifold ported while I'm at it. Should get them back this week. Sent from my SM-G900W8 using Tapatalk

What are your main bearing to crank clearance specs?

Thank You
Scott

[Footy1986]

man that completely sucks on your luck thus far. my engine let go last year, at the end of september. i went the same route as your haha. manley h rods, sp63 pistons. the pistons seemed fine when i set put mine all together. i had the machine shop who balanced it do all the fine work and i put it together. 88mm and oversized main and rod bearings. that part sucked since king was the only bearings that went as far as i needed. i got mine back up finally march or april this year.