Need Help deciding on stuff

[RustySpeed6]

Good Day Everyone.

As you can tell I am new here. I been searching and searching for a few days and found lots of very interesting information.

All I need now is to set my mind straight and just get the engine build done.
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Long story short. I got a speed6 as a project. Has engine knock in cyl.4. The previous owner said it happened after a hard corner / off ramp.
I am assuming this caused oil starvation and spun a rod bearing.
I took off the oil pan and yup... there is no bearing left on cyl.4 I see lots of metal shavings in the oil pan. Still did not find the bearing anywhere else.
The car still started and ran with the knock. (Had to drive it on and off the trailer)
The mileage on the engine is only 137.000 km. (or 85.500 miles)
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Here are a couple of questions I have for you.
I have yet to dismantle the engine. Its on a stand ready to go, but this is my spare time project so it will take time to get to it.
Also so everyone is aware of the goals for this car. I want decent power. I do not want to race it but more or less have an awesome DD / Sunday car and maybe pull on some WRXs
I am maybe aiming for 300WHP. and possibly 400WHP down the road with finances availability.
The questions are for the block only. I will upgrade the turbo and get / fabricate other bolt-ons.

Q1: For my power goals, is it worth the money to go forged? Or should I return to factory spec with small internal upgrades? (bearings, BSD, oil pump, fuel pump)

Q2: Lets say the crank CANT be machined. Which other crank is the same? Any 2.3L? Or only the SPEED 3/6 and CX7? I was seeing that Ford Fusion has same bottom end?

Q3: Lets say the Rods are too far gone from machining. (I think cyl 4 rod is an oval now) Should I use OEM rods or spend the money and get some Manley Rods as an upgrade?

Q4: Piston options. I guess this will all depends on the rods situation? OEM with OEM rods. and Manley (or other) rods with "aftermarket" pistons? Just need a confirmation so I am not confused.

This is all so far.

I am open to any advice and any information in regards to this.

I will do my best to keep all my questions here and then start a build thread separately.

Thank you very much for all of your help.

[shamie]

Since you need a full tear down anyway and at least 1 rod I would just go forged. Mill the crank, bore the block, and get some oversized bearings and Manley rods and pistons (people here in Utah have been having issues with Wiseco). Then you don't have to worry about your load or boost getting a little high.

[Thor Hammer]

As its a long term project you can save up over time and go forged. You'll be glad you did.

[RustySpeed6]

Thanks for the response guys.

It seems to me that OEM rods are more expensive anyway.
But going with OEM pistons would be much cheaper, I would assume still should get forged ones.

Any insight on the crank? Can I run one from another 2.3? If so which one?

[Fstrnyou]

I'm running Manley rods/pistons. Manley's pistons are 2618 forgings.
For a mild build, 4032 forgings are probably better, but I don't think Manley offers that material, so you'll have to look at a different brand.

I don't recall which, but 1 of the ford cranks are direct bolt-in and is much cheaper than the mazda crank. The mustang crank maybe?

[shamie]

See if the crank is able to be machined and if oversized bearings exist. You need to buy bearings regardless and machine costs are much cheaper than even a Ford crank.

[5doorsoffury]

Ok so stock piston forged rods. Imho this is a great combo for a 350-400 whp motor GIVEN you open up the ring gap larger then oem spec to prevent the rings from butting and subsequently cracking a ringland.

The good. Oem performance and no need for special treatment during warmup unlike forged pistons. You can run a tight PTW clearance vs a forged alloy.

The bad. The only rod that can fit the stock piston is a carillo wich i believe is 800+ for a set....

The next step is 4032 alloy for under 500hp. Great compromise between cast and the 2618 alloy that holds more power. I would stay away from 2618 alltogether if you are running in the winter. Others have success but its a pima for proper warmup.

You aim for 300hp but in reality the differance between 300 and 400 is meth and more boost. I am assuming you are getting a bigger turbo then the k04? Even with the ko4 you can run a lot of boost lower in the rpm band and make shit loads of torque. I would plan for 400hp. Best thing i did was pick a hp and build for that with a little overhead.

On a side note i would not keep the balance shaft because they are notoriously hard to reshim to the block. If done wrong the motor will run like a battery powered vibrator wired into a wall socket.

Like the other poster said get the crank machined if it needs it... Otherwise just replace with oem. Our crank is forged and i cant remember anyone ever breaking one from power.

[RustySpeed6]

Just a small update...

Pulled the motor all the way apart...

Rod #4 is toast. Crank seems to have fused the rod bearing to it self.
Crank is on the way too the machine shop tomorrow. I can't wait to see what they say.
ALL of crank bearings are done too. All scratched to way beyond my liking. HOWEVER the crank looks mint. no scratches nor gouges. Except cylinder 4.

Are there bearing anyone recommends? Or just any bearing will do?
I been reading on the Clevette bearings. Seems like most go with those.
The machine shop dude told me he will give me his bearings through his supplier. but hes not sure who manufactures them. My friend used this guy before and swears by him and his products, however he has an old rebuilt chev 350.... the tolerances on those are not as critical. IMO.

I am yet to measure the bore. My tool is broken so I am waiting on a new one in the mail... hopefully I can get them soon.

Anything else I am missing while I am there?

Feel free to chime in

[Fstrnyou]

OEM bearings are a popular option.

[RustySpeed6]

Another update.

The machine shop dude came back to me and said that the crank is fixable.

He wants to see the block before we proceed.

He also is supplying me with Clivette Bearings for the Mains and Con-Rods. all for just 90 bucks. Should I stick with those? Or get my own Kings bearings ?

We were talking about building it up (as my wish) and he offered me Eagle rods for a decent price.

I searched and searched. No one has bad things to say about them, but at the moment they are the cheapest H beams out there.

I was pretty set on the Manley Rods. But the price for the Eagles is pretty decent considering CAD dollar to US dollar ration ATM.

Any opinions on this?

Also, should I start my own build thread? or Paste my progress here?

[Jeff23spl]

I 'm not sure but i think you have something to get machined specific with eagles rods but don't remember what it was. just double check.

[shamie]

I would (did) go clevite & manley. Kings weren't out when I built and the manleys were better than the available eagles.

[Fstrnyou]

Even the "cheap" Manley rods are pretty good. I stepped up 1 notch to their H-Tuff rods.

Standard H-beam (500-600chp) ARP2000 bolts ($365)
H-Tuff (750chp) ARP2000 ($476)
H-Tuff+ (950chp) CA625+ bolts ($640)
Turbo-Tuff (1000+chp) ARP2000 ($790)
Turbo-Tuff+ (1000+chp) CA625+ ($990)
...ratings listed in crank/flywheel horsepower

There is also an upgraded thick wall wrist pin option, but I don't know what that does for HP rating.

[Solarsurge]

Originally Posted by Fstrnyou Even the "cheap" Manley rods are pretty good. I stepped up 1 notch to their H-Tuff rods. Standard H-beam (500-600chp) ARP2000 bolts ($365) H-Tuff (750chp) ARP2000 ($476) H-Tuff+ (950chp) CA625+ bolts ($640) Turbo-Tuff (1000+chp) ARP2000 ($790) Turbo-Tuff+ (1000+chp) CA625+ ($990) ...ratings listed in crank/flywheel horsepower There is also an upgraded thick wall wrist pin option, but I don't know what that does for HP rating.

Thick wall wrist pins aren't really for HP as much as they are for engine speed. I have a head that's modified to rev out to 8000 RPM. Forces exerted on the wrist pin can get exponentially higher and more violent at higher RPMs and cause a thinner pin to fail. I don't really think it's 100% necessary, but for me it was just cheap insurance that won't happen.

[Jeff23spl]

i was happy with my Manley setup. Rods and pistons weight matched pretty well right out of the box but if i would have to do it again, i would probably get the 4032 ones.

[RustySpeed6]

Good Day everyone....

I got updates.

The block is going in on Thursday for MagnaFlux and clean and spec check and basically everything it needs. Hopefully they won't be needing to do much..
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I was messing around with the head. and Thus far all the valves are sitting pretty tight. I will still re-seat them and do the whole cleaning and taking apart and clearance checking.
HOWEVER... I noticed there are some crazy scoring on the cams, caps and the head it self. The head is the least of my worries as a little wet sand and most of it went away. But the caps and the cams are quite badly hurt. Contaminated oil defiantly does terrible things to the engine.

I talked to some people and most said its not great... but its "fine" to go back in with a little bit of wet sand and polish and frequent oil changes and then another cap re-torque at around 1000 km. Basically keep an eye out on it.

Another person said to bore the journals and get custom cam bearings made. To me this is more expensive than a new head. Probably not tho. I also do not like adding things to places where it wasn't before.

I am at such loss with this car already. I do not want to put 5 k in just repairs.
STI;s in town are not like 12 thousand bucks so its hard to keep it on budget...

Anyway. Some photos for you.

All of your advise would be appreciated as always.

[Jeff23spl]

new cams may cost less than a bushing job and you can probably source some good used ones at a cheap price.

[RustySpeed6]

@Jeff23spl

Would I not need new caps tho?
Also gotta do some journal polishing on the head?

[Fstrnyou]

Something to keep in mind, you'll need to check valve clearances and likely need to swap out most of the valve buckets.
According to the service manual, cam caps are unique to the head they came on. Likely because they are installed on the head at the factory and then align honed as a set to their final size. Swapping out the caps would require careful measuring to ensure the alignment is good.

[RustySpeed6]

Oh man...

The cost of all this is making regret getting this project...

I will keep you posted on my Machine Shop date... See what he says

[Jeff23spl]

You can just polish the cap and head side and try it with good cams but i still think even a complete good used head would be easy to find. A lot, have blown the base with a hole on the bloc so they have a spare head for years that they would probably sell for cheap...

[Fstrnyou]

I have 2 "spare" heads.
One of them has minor scoring like yours, the other I plan to P&P one day.

[RustySpeed6]

I tried polishing it with 220 grid and a tonne of wd40 / engine oil. Most of them are coming right out and starting to feel smooth. Same with the cams. small quick buff.. I think it just attached some extra material to it and it will come out. Little bit of lines make no difference to me.

Where would one buy a cheap head? I been looking every where and cheapest re manufactured head is 1200 cad. I haven't yet found a used "blown bottom end" head.

[Jeff23spl]

Originally Posted by RustySpeed6 I tried polishing it with 220 grid and a tonne of wd40 / engine oil. Most of them are coming right out and starting to feel smooth. Same with the cams. small quick buff.. I think it just attached some extra material to it and it will come out. Little bit of lines make no difference to me. Where would one buy a cheap head? I been looking every where and cheapest re manufactured head is 1200 cad. I haven't yet found a used "blown bottom end" head.

220 is a bit rought...i would finish it with 800 or 1000. The secret is plastigage it. just compare it against Mazda specs and you will see...You can check youtube for a lesson but basically, you dry it out, put the plastic around, torque de cam as per spec. remove it and check plastic shape against the chart.
You will have plasticgage size range specially made for the clearance you need...

You won't find cheap rebuilded head or one for sale at a store but you can source a damaged motor and remove it yourself. In Qc there is a lot of part out and finding one for about 250$ is easy...You can even check KIJIJI and have it ship from Qc or Ontario if there isn't in your area...It may cost a bit of shipping but...

[Fstrnyou]

If the cam journals and head/cam cap surfaces are coming out good, just double check the oil clearance before bolting it back together. In case you took off more than you meant to. The head and cam caps are aluminum. It doesn't take much effort to remove a lot.

Not trying to be pessimistic about all this, but I'd hate for you to put a lot of time and money into something and then it fail because you didn't verify a few things.

[5doorsoffury]

Ok so look for blown motor from a cx7 turbo and salvage the head. Cams are cheap. If you want to polish make sure you check the clearance with plasi gauge incase you taper the cap.

Mixing cam tappet clearances is ok since you can play the shell game a lot before buying new ones. Remeber the old caps are worn down so a 3.25 may acually be 3.21 from wear so measure each cap before ordering ew ones
If i were you i would get new cams and plastigauge the clearance and if it is within oem spec run with it. If not get a new head. It looks like that old motor ran oil starved at one point.

Also 1000 posts. Im done.

[RustySpeed6]

You guys are a lot of help

Thank you so much.

I need to find an FSM and learn how to PlastiGauge stuff.

this is also quite the learning experience for me.

Thanks again

[Fstrnyou]

I measured the buckets from both of my engines. My old engine had 157k miles. The donor engine came from a CX7, so likely much lower miles. All the matching buckets measured consistently which makes me think there is little to no wear on the buckets.

[Solarsurge]

Originally Posted by Fstrnyou I measured the buckets from both of my engines. My old engine had 157k miles. The donor engine came from a CX7, so likely much lower miles. All the matching buckets measured consistently which makes me think there is little to no wear on the buckets.

These buckets don’t wear. I’ve seen 200k buckets with zero wear, dropped them on concrete and no damage. They are hard AF. The cams are pretty sturdy too. The journals are super soft, though, and they score very very easily.


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[JDubAZ]

anymore updates? cool project so far I was looking for a MS6 but I couldnt find one plus I needed something newer with less miles so I went with 10 MS3 with 70k