Rebuilding an already forged engine..

[I_AINT_RICE]

Hey guys, decided to make a new thread following my rebuild.

Experienced a loud ticking on a 30k forged motor. Pulled it apart, wrist pin retaining clip popped out and scored the cylinder wall. Car already had 88mm pistons so no saving the sleeves. Decided to go through darton for their resleeving service.

Heres the plan:
-new piston from weisco (just purchased)
-send out crank to micropolished and get keyed.
-new bearings and rings
-hot tank head and new valve seals
-new friction disk for 6 puck

Question: Who pins cams?

Pics








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[WetzMS3]

SP63 is probably your best option for keyed crank.

To have the cams pinned, you'll need the motor timed, so it will need to be done locally. Most competent machine shops should be able to do it, whether or not any of them are willing to and able to competently time the motor is the bigger question.

All that being said, there are motors putting out plenty of power without being keyed or pinned.

[I_AINT_RICE]

Originally Posted by WetzMS3 SP63 is probably your best option for keyed crank. To have the cams pinned, you'll need the motor timed, so it will need to be done locally. Most competent machine shops should be able to do it, whether or not any of them are willing to and able to competently time the motor is the bigger question. All that being said, there are motors putting out plenty of power without being keyed or pinned.

Thanks man. Planned on sp63 for the keying. Might now touch the cams then

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[BuddySpeed3]

Originally Posted by WetzMS3 SP63 is probably your best option for keyed crank. To have the cams pinned, you'll need the motor timed, so it will need to be done locally. Most competent machine shops should be able to do it, whether or not any of them are willing to and able to competently time the motor is the bigger question. All that being said, there are motors putting out plenty of power without being keyed or pinned.

Why do people key the crank and cams? Is it to prevent the engine from going out of time if the friction washers slip?

[WetzMS3]

Originally Posted by BuddySpeed3 Why do people key the crank and cams? Is it to prevent the engine from going out of time if the friction washers slip?

That is exactly why it's done.

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[BuddySpeed3]

Originally Posted by WetzMS3 That is exactly why it's done. Sent from my XT1254 using Tapatalk

Nice, What are the chances of the engine going out of time with friction washers?

[I_AINT_RICE]

Originally Posted by BuddySpeed3 Nice, What are the chances of the engine going out of time with friction washers?

Personally, I haven't seen it. But then again, I dont know many people making over 500whp without the crank keyed

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[WetzMS3]

If assembled correctly, the chances of slipping timing are minimal. Even on higher HP builds.

That white gen1 with the record that Justin just bought, friction washers.

[BuddySpeed3]

Originally Posted by WetzMS3 That white gen1 with the record that Justin just bought, friction washers.

Awesome, How much power is it putting down?

[mxlplx71]

Originally Posted by BuddySpeed3 Awesome, How much power is it putting down?

i think it was 800+

[droflow]

What would cause a wrist pin retainer to pop out? Just had an engine rebuilt with wiseco pistons and wondering how to prevent this from happening just after 30k haha

[blackms3_71]

Originally Posted by droflow What would cause a wrist pin retainer to pop out? Just had an engine rebuilt with wiseco pistons and wondering how to prevent this from happening just after 30k haha

Installer error. Either it wasnt in right and now at the bottom of the oil pan or never installed at all.

[sheston]

Maybe you need keyed wrist pins? :-)

Would be interested in if you find pieces of the clip in the oil pan or not.

[I_AINT_RICE]

No sir, relooked at the piston. The retainer clips is still there, just got eroded. I'll post pics shortly

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[I_AINT_RICE]

Gonna pull the engine today.. Pics to come

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[droflow]

Originally Posted by I_AINT_RICE Gonna pull the engine today.. Pics to come Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G870A using Tapatalk

Didn't you already pull the engine???


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[I_AINT_RICE]

Originally Posted by droflow Didn't you already pull the engine??? Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Nah just knocked the pistons out

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[droflow]

Originally Posted by I_AINT_RICE Nah just knocked the pistons out Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G870A using Tapatalk

Well damn, it looked like the block was pulled already from the photos! Did you just drop the crank with the rods attached?


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[Dano]

Originally Posted by WetzMS3 If assembled correctly, the chances of slipping timing are minimal. Even on higher HP builds. That white gen1 with the record that Justin just bought, friction washers.

I think it can become more of an issue with higher rev builds not necessarily higher HP builds. Higher rev necessarily requires heavier valve springs (to prevent valve float). When you start down that road its more possible the washers might give way.

What happened to OP def sucks. Possibly a material defect in the original Wiseco clips?

[I_AINT_RICE]

Pulled the engine apart:
Missing 3 oil squirters
Bearing look great
The clutch was hardly hanging on
Overall, doesnt look too bad









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[Dano]

you have to bend the oil jets to work with any aftermarket pistons, and do it correctly

I did it by putting the female end of a long 1/4 drive extension over the jet from the bottom after each pistons/rod combo was installed and torqued down. This so I could visibly see where it needed to go. doing it before assembly is like flying blind IMO. I got it close before putting the rod caps on and torquing of course but you get the idea.

I suppose it's possible you may have over heated the pistons/pins which lead to the clip failure.

good luck with the rebuild.

[I_AINT_RICE]

Originally Posted by Dano you have to bend the oil jets to work with any aftermarket pistons, and do it correctly I did it by putting the female end of a long 1/4 drive extension over the jet from the bottom after each pistons/rod combo was installed and torqued down. This so I could visibly see where it needed to go. doing it before assembly is like flying blind IMO. I got it close before putting the rod caps on and torquing of course but you get the idea. I suppose it's possible you may have over heated the pistons/pins which lead to the clip failure. good luck with the rebuild.

The wrist pin actually rode on the clip itself. Over time eroding the retainer clip and allowing the wrist pin to walk back and forth. Unfortunately I have a potatoe for a camera phone. If the pic was actually visible, you can see the clip still in its place, its just completely flush.

And that's the plan on the oil squirters. Had to do that with a evo 10 engine I built recently

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[Dano]

no matter what camera you used in the pic you posted, there would be no way to determine if the clip was there or not. You disassembled it so have a better view for sure.

I just like to solve problems and I can't see how the pin can get past a clip if properly installed. There is no meaningful lateral force on the pin to force it past a clip.

I can't even see it happening in the absence of extra lubrication due to the jet being gone. oil still gets splashed all over the bottom of the piston. AFAIK, the jets are primarily for cooling not pin lubrication.

the clip didn't magically shrink.

If I were you, I'd want to know the cause before building again. Basic failure analysis 101.

[I_AINT_RICE]

Originally Posted by Dano no matter what camera you used in the pic you posted, there would be no way to determine if the clip was there or not. You disassembled it so have a better view for sure. I just like to solve problems and I can't see how the pin can get past a clip if properly installed. There is no meaningful lateral force on the pin to force it past a clip. I can't even see it happening in the absence of extra lubrication due to the jet being gone. oil still gets splashed all over the bottom of the piston. AFAIK, the jets are primarily for cooling not pin lubrication. the clip didn't magically shrink. If I were you, I'd want to know the cause before building again. Basic failure analysis 101.

Yeah, the engine was built when I purchased the car. I plan on throwing in spiro clips. That's what ive done on all the engines I've built. Honesty, I hate these stupid wiesco retaining c clips.




Heres some pics brother. Thanks for the help

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Originally Posted by I_AINT_RICE Yeah, the engine was built when I purchased the car. I plan on throwing in spiro clips. That's what ive done on all the engines I've built. Honesty, I hate these stupid wiesco retaining c clips. Heres some pics brother. Thanks for the help Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G870A using Tapatalk

Honestly, the only time I have seen a clip fail similar to this was having someone throw in the clips in prior to setting the wrist pin. Instead of removing the clips, they banged the pin past one of the clips.

Not sure if this is what happened here, but regardless it's pretty odd

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[Mazdazilla6]

How loose is the pin in it's bore? They're not press fit (obviously) but they should be decently snug without any circlips. If too loose it could smack against the clip enough over time.

[Nitr0EngiE]

Originally Posted by I_AINT_RICE Yeah, the engine was built when I purchased the car. I plan on throwing in spiro clips. That's what ive done on all the engines I've built. Honesty, I hate these stupid wiesco retaining c clips. Heres some pics brother. Thanks for the help Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G870A using Tapatalk Honestly, the only time I have seen a clip fail similar to this was having someone throw in the clips in prior to setting the wrist pin. Instead of removing the clips, they banged the pin past one of the clips. Not sure if this is what happened here, but regardless it's pretty odd Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G870A using Tapatalk

SERIOUSLY!@@!!@ How fucking lazy do you have to be to try and press a wrist pin past its retaining clip ...... I cant believe i just read that. Suppose you get it past, then the pin is scored and the clip is compromised after being pressed. What fail.

OP FWIW I have Wiseco pistons and 50k later still no problems

[WetzMS3]

Originally Posted by Nitr0EngiE SERIOUSLY!@@!!@ How fucking lazy do you have to be to try and press a wrist pin past its retaining clip ...... I cant believe i just read that. Suppose you get it past, then the pin is scored and the clip is compromised after being pressed. What fail. OP FWIW I have Wiseco pistons and 50k later still no problems

Lol, agreed.

I have 20k on my Wiseco pistons, no problems either.

Were the oil squirters ever found? Curious as to where they ended up and in what condition. I'd imagine they broke off many many miles ago.

[Nitr0EngiE]

Originally Posted by I_AINT_RICE No sir, relooked at the piston. The retainer clips is still there, just got eroded. I'll post pics shortly Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G870A using Tapatalk

this makes no sense because the ring is constantly coated in oil so it should not be corroding or rusting even though its against aluminum. there is something else wrong.

[droflow]

So how are you supposed to bend the oil squirters? Put the piston at the bottom of the stroke and bend it around it?


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[WetzMS3]

Originally Posted by droflow So how are you supposed to bend the oil squirters? Put the piston at the bottom of the stroke and bend it around it? Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Originally Posted by Dano you have to bend the oil jets to work with any aftermarket pistons, and do it correctly I did it by putting the female end of a long 1/4 drive extension over the jet from the bottom after each pistons/rod combo was installed and torqued down. This so I could visibly see where it needed to go. doing it before assembly is like flying blind IMO. I got it close before putting the rod caps on and torquing of course but you get the idea. I suppose it's possible you may have over heated the pistons/pins which lead to the clip failure. good luck with the rebuild.

I do it similarly to the way @Dano; described. You can eye ball it before torquing the rod caps, but always verify after its torqued.

[droflow]

Do you just bend it enough so it doesn't hit the piston skirt?


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[Dano]

IIRC you have to both bend it out (related to the cylinder wall) and inward (toward the rod.) wait, maybe away from the rod..lol been awhile but def away from the cylinder wall since there is no relief milled into the piston skirt.

if you go too far out from the wall you get contact.

in OPs setup, the jets were likely gone at or within a few miles of startup

the original builder made a few mistakes.

on my 1st build I lost one jet then learned to look at the clearance with everything installed and rotated around.

Originally Posted by I_AINT_RICE Yeah, the engine was built when I purchased the car. I plan on throwing in spiro clips. That's what ive done on all the engines I've built. Honesty, I hate these stupid wiesco retaining c clips. Heres some pics brother. Thanks for the help Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G870A using Tapatalk Honestly, the only time I have seen a clip fail similar to this was having someone throw in the clips in prior to setting the wrist pin. Instead of removing the clips, they banged the pin past one of the clips. Not sure if this is what happened here, but regardless it's pretty odd Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G870A using Tapatalk

much better pics...still no idea how the pin got past the clip...unless the dumbass hammered the pin past the already installed clip.

my Wiseco's have about 25K on them...no issues detected.

[I_AINT_RICE]

Originally Posted by Dano IIRC you have to both bend it out (related to the cylinder wall) and inward (toward the rod.) wait, maybe away from the rod..lol been awhile but def away from the cylinder wall since there is no relief milled into the piston skirt. if you go too far out from the wall you get contact. in OPs setup, the jets were likely gone at or within a few miles of startup the original builder made a few mistakes. on my 1st build I lost one jet then learned to look at the clearance with everything installed and rotated around. much better pics...still no idea how the pin got past the clip...unless the dumbass hammered the pin past the already installed clip. my Wiseco's have about 25K on them...no issues detected.

I'll run spirolox in my build. Love them. No reason to run those stupid c clip style retaining clips.

What do you guys think if darton dry sleeves? AZ NATOR states it will be a limiting factor relative to wet sleeves?

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[WetzMS3]

Originally Posted by I_AINT_RICE I'll run spirolox in my build. Love them. No reason to run those stupid c clip style retaining clips. What do you guys think if darton dry sleeves? AZ NATOR states it will be a limiting factor relative to wet sleeves? Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G870A using Tapatalk

Who in Nator AZ?

If it ain't @Enki;, I've heard the rest are drama queens and fuckbois.

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[Dano]

Originally Posted by I_AINT_RICE I'll run spirolox in my build. Love them. No reason to run those stupid c clip style retaining clips. What do you guys think if darton dry sleeves? AZ NATOR states it will be a limiting factor relative to wet sleeves? Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G870A using Tapatalk

they look legit.

I have no experience with sleeves.

What did you go with Ben? @btstarcher;

[Enki]

Word is you should run wet sleeves for daily duty but you can get away with dry for a dedicated drag car that gets shut down for cooldown after every run.

[I_AINT_RICE]

Originally Posted by Enki Word is you should run wet sleeves for daily duty but you can get away with dry for a dedicated drag car that gets shut down for cooldown after every run.

But why? Stock block is dry sleeve based (casted and molded).

Called the darton guy that Kevin mentioned. Not sure what rep stated the 30psi. In no way is it a limit (boost based)?

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[Mazdazilla6]

Dry sleeves will do you just fine. Plenty of people run them. Wet sleeves don't do much for our engine since we don't have any cooling issues (unless you're doing mega heavy track duty stuff). The other guys might be thinking of sealing up the jackets and going sans coolant, which in that case yea, it'd only be good for those short straight line races.

[M900]

Do not use spiro lox in a piston that is meant to have round wire locks, the grooves are machined differently. I would compare the wire diameter of the lock that failed to a good one, may have been the wrong lock or the groove may have been cut wrong.
Paul

And make sure that rod is not bent or twisted, both of which can put a side load on the pin.
Paul

[M900]

And the wrist pins are different depending on the type of lock used. Round wire equals chamfer, spiro lox just have an edge break.
Paul