KR explained

[Vansquish]

I've been hoping to avoid this section, but unfortunately, here I am! I was checking that my MAF calibration was on-point given that we're starting to have some warmer weather and I just cleaned the filter on my SRI (less detritus = better flow), and decided to do a few little WOT runs to see how things were holding up on that end too.

The result...well...mixed at best.

I'm seeing KR up to 5.5 in the 1.6-1.8 load range, and between 4700 and 5700rpm. On my latest map I forgot to enable the knock sensor above 5700, so I'm assuming/extrapolating that it continued to knock up near the redline as well.

My map is based on a 91 Octane Stage 1, CpN OTS map from Cobb, but I've tweaked Boost, AFR, and timing per Abilor's/Bucker's guides. This is the first time I've seen this much knock at WOT, so I'm wondering if you guys think it might be transitory (spark plugs, bad gas, etc...), or something a little more serious.

Apologies in advance for the log. I took the knocking portions of my long-ass log and dumped them into a single CSV file with each separate occurrence separated by a single line gap.

Thanks in advance for any insights you might have!

EDIT:
For anyone looking for an example of what not to do, check my log.

I believe that my knock was real, but related to a few pretty easy-to-fix things (please let me know if I'm wrong).

1) I was running significantly too much timing in the mid-upper rev range given my modest mods.

2) BATs were reasonably high (100*-120*)

3) IAT was reasonably high as well (that's what I get for having an SRI).

At any rate, I flashed to a map with significantly less aggressive timing and now things are running more or less perfectly again (0-.35* knock), and on my last log, I made about 25lb-ft more (though 10whp less) than the more aggressive map.

[Mortose]

Originally Posted by bertrand_CX_7 hey guys sorry for the nob question, but I'm seeing late on my AP the KR reading 8.0 So I'm really not sure if this really means 8.0 of KR, that's why I'm asking just to make sure. The weird thing is that it's happening when cruising at the time I wasn't punching the car when I'm suddenly reading this on the AP. So no load on the engine when this is happening. My tuning is not completed yet. There is still the regular gas pump to be tune out. Anyone else seeing this?

I'm starting to see the same thing. Not NEARLY that high, but like 5.5* or lower. But mine only does it when the motor is "cold". once i've driven around a bit, it has a quick fit of KR, then i'm good for the rest of the day (unless i park for 8-10 hours). I've ran WOT, and seen a blink of .3 every once and a while, but never anything more.

I NEED ANSWERS. I'm running a Stage 2 91 SF+TIH+IC.

Side note: i did add some octane booster to this tank, so we will see.

[bertrand_CX_7]

Yeah, i got DJ Look into that. then got a reevised map that looks much better now.

I bearely See KRs now. I'll check what changed on that map and Update you.

[Mortose]

Thanks man.

[DickFitzwell]

good thread @Lex. starting my tune from @atvfreek tomorrow for 50/50 (assuming he thought my logs looked good enough to warrant this). looking forward to meeting you finally in a few weeks for the SOCAL NATOR dyno day; ill keep ya posted on what i find in my new tune

[Mortose]

Originally Posted by Mortose I'm starting to see the same thing. Not NEARLY that high, but like 5.5* or lower. But mine only does it when the motor is "cold". once i've driven around a bit, it has a quick fit of KR, then i'm good for the rest of the day (unless i park for 8-10 hours). I've ran WOT, and seen a blink of .3 every once and a while, but never anything more. I NEED ANSWERS. I'm running a Stage 2 91 SF+TIH+IC. Side note: i did add some octane booster to this tank, so we will see.

Update: Seems i MAY be getting hot spots. I found that if i drive out of boost for about 10 min, i can drive like normal and not get a single hint of KR.

Any in-site on this from the guru's?

[Lex]

Originally Posted by DickFitzwell good thread @Lex. starting my tune from @atvfreek tomorrow for 50/50 (assuming he thought my logs looked good enough to warrant this). looking forward to meeting you finally in a few weeks for the SOCAL NATOR dyno day; ill keep ya posted on what i find in my new tune

You're in good hands - you should make some solid power on the dyno!

[rfinkle2]

If injector seals are a suspect of false KR, is there a specific portion of the rev band in which KR would be reported or is it random?

[KevMS6]

How much knock can these cars handle before causing damage?

If timing is out causing knock of around 5* throughout WOT runs, can there be immediate engine damage?

[Lex]

Originally Posted by kevstewart• How much knock can these cars handle before causing damage? If timing is out causing knock of around 5* throughout WOT runs, can there be immediate engine damage?

Yes there can be damage. The longer you are in those conditions the more likelihood for damage.

[x09MS3GT]

Originally Posted by Lex Yes there can be damage. The longer you are in those conditions the more likelihood for damage.

If i ever once logged KR over 2 in my car at any time during WOT, i would pull over, turn the car off, kneel down by the front driver side quarter panel, and quietly apologize to my 2.3 DISI until I was deemed forgiven by the car Gods.

[KevMS6]

I wasn't out long, about 5 miles, consisting of a 3/4/5/6 4/5/6 and then slowly back home... Consistent knock in every run, every gear seeing around about 5

My normal timing is around 7, it was up around 20 this time however

Hopefully no damage done

[maddocx240]

hey im looking for a little help with my logs im seeing the last couple of days.. im on a stage 1 ots stock tune, only upgrade i have is kmd internals. my kr is all over the place. fuel pressure is good, my a/f ratios are a bit iffy as well.. it fluctuates from 11's to 12's.. im not sure whats going on, maybe one the tuning gurus on here can help me out..

[atvfreek]

Originally Posted by maddocx240 hey im looking for a little help with my logs im seeing the last couple of days.. im on a stage 1 ots stock tune, only upgrade i have is kmd internals. my kr is all over the place. fuel pressure is good, my a/f ratios are a bit iffy as well.. it fluctuates from 11's to 12's.. im not sure whats going on, maybe one the tuning gurus on here can help me out..

Your car is running a bit lean. Some OTS maps need a bit more work than others. Need to start with a good maf cal for both PT and WOT. Then adjust all your fuel tables to a conservative afr to start. Looks like you are running a good amount of timing, so that mixed with the lean/erratic afr's is causing the kr.

[Lex]

Originally Posted by kevstewart• I wasn't out long, about 5 miles, consisting of a 3/4/5/6 4/5/6 and then slowly back home... Consistent knock in every run, every gear seeing around about 5 My normal timing is around 7, it was up around 20 this time however Hopefully no damage done

This was a bug with VT. Make sure you upgrade to 1.7.2

[12blkms3]

I saw some kr last night 4.6 at WOT to be exact, the car was warm but it was cold (50deg)/ stock fp/ street was at a slope (not sure if that matters) no log though, I was too scared

[mariomspeed]

Originally Posted by Lex Post the log. In some areas the stock tune has too much timing like where I live. My car saw 4.0 KR stock. It can also be caused by other noise as described in this thread. If you want to know if it's real knock, put 2-3 gallons of E85 in your tank when you next fill up and see if its gone. If the KR i still there at WOT it's noise from something else.

ive tried running a 93 tune my buddy ran on his car and i get 3.0 kr at somepoint throughtout a WOT pull. however there was a difference in mods at that time. We both had similar mods but he had an aftermarket top mount intercooler, downpipe and TIP and i was on the stock ones. Now i have a TIP and test pipe along with pump internals, COBB SRI, RMM, AND BPV. Im wondering is i put in a few gallons of e85 if it will eliminate the knock and if so be safe to drive. any ideas lex?
also i normally run the cobb stage 2 map with cobb sri and tip with .3 kr sometimes on spool up.

[Lex]

The E85 will eliminate the KR in most cases. However if you do go through the trouble of putting in E85, you should get a tune for E85 as there is quite a bit more to be had than what a 93 tune can do.

[mrdouble99]

Trying to find out why i have P0304 and watching all the critical data, i realized i can make my car knock if i want.

I just have to be in 3rd or 4th gear and play around 3500rpm.

Something is lose or it can be the injector #4 ?

My weird idle thread

Weird idle

[MilwaukeeSpeed6]

Based off of what Ive read, and what im seeing in my data logs, I have a knocking issue on my hands. Its an 07 speed6, CS SRI, FORGE BPV, Autech HPFP, Cobb AP CS+TIH Stage 1,

I just installed the HPFP internals and have about 100 miles on them, i also just go the cobb AP and again have less than 100 miles with it. I do have the one step colder denso plugs on the way to my house so hopefully that will help, however i have a feeling there may be more going on here than proper plugs can solve.

Ive attached a datalog showing a WOT pull. PLEASE HELP!!!!

[TiGraySpeed6]

First, please post logs in their original, unedited csv format. We can read them, it's ok. You're welcome to format and tinker with them in whatever way makes em easier to read, but if you're gonna post a log for review, use the original csv.

Next up- Are you planning on tuning yourself, or using one of the e-tuners here? There are a number of changes to be made, not the least of which would be to tweak the KR tables so that they have much better resolution. Default settings are like using a shotgun, and there may only be half of what's being reported in your log.

Now then, the log. That's a lot of kr across a wide range and even during presumably low loads- that leads me to ask where you are for basic maintenance stuff.

- Just how old are the plugs in the car now is the first question I've got. Really crappy old stock plugs could do that to you.
- When was the last time you cleaned your MAF Sensor?
- How do your LTFT's look, and have you started on the MAF Cal yet?
- Are you sure there's nothing rattling around in the engine bay causing false knock?
- Changed your oil recently?
- How's your timing chain?


Also, please set your AP to log the following so we can get a more complete picture. This set of parameters will give you what you need to handle most normal situations-

Accel. Pedal Pos. (%)
Actual AFR (AFR)
Boost (PSI)
Boost Air Temp. ( F)
Calculated Load (Load)
Coolant Temp. ( F)
HPFP Act. Press. (PSI)
Inj. Duty Cycle (%)
Intake Temp. ( F)
Intake Valve Adv. ()
Knock Retard ()
Long Term FT (%)
MAF Voltage (V)
Mass Airflow (g/s)
RPM (RPM)
Short Term FT (%)
Spark Adv. ()
Throttle Position (%)
Vehicle Speed (mph)
Wastegate Duty (%)

[MilwaukeeSpeed6]

Im at work so ill make this quick. Noted on the logs. I would like to tune myself however im thinkng due to my lack of knowledge i will have someone etune for me

Ive only owned the car for 4 months and have not changed the plugs yetcso they r probably crappy stockers. I have new densos on the way

Never cleaned the MAF. Will do when i get the new plugs

No idea where i sit wit LTFT as i am new to this but will log some more data when the new plugs come

I will also calibrate the MAF however im using the cobb map that corresponds to my CS SRI+tih so i would think it is close.

The oil was changed 1000 miles ago

No idea how the timing chain is. Will look into that when i do
the plugs.

Will also look for loose hoses and such.

Thank you for your suggestions, hopefully i can figure this out. More logs will be up in the next few days

[MilwaukeeSpeed6]

I was able to put 100 or so more miles on the car today (light on the throttle), and i of course monitered the KR. It seemed to be getting much better so i decided to do a few logs. It has improved drastically. I am guessing that the stock ECU was having growing pains with the new map, and it seems to have worked itself out.....mostly....There are still blips of KR that occur but they are relatively low. Im hoping that the new denso's (if they ever show up!!!!) will help to get rid of those blips. THANK YOU very much for the advice, us noobs wouldn't survive without people like you. here are the logs

[mrdouble99]

this week i've switch map from stage1 93 v231 to stage1 91 v231 to see if the knock go away.

Same thing

I can make it knock in every gear if i want, i just have to be around 3500rpm.

I did a datalog to show i can make it knock and one WOT in 4th

No vibration in clutch pedal and it's hard to tell if something is lose around the engine.

What do you think @Lex

[udntknw]

I'm pretty new at this but from what I've read and seen, high knock while cruising like that is normal. It's the car trying to get the most timing possible for fuel efficiency.

just tap it in

[silvapain]

Originally Posted by mrdouble99 this week i've switch map from stage1 93 v231 to stage1 91 v231 to see if the knock go away. Same thing I can make it knock in every gear if i want, i just have to be around 3500rpm. I did a datalog to show i can make it knock and one WOT in 4th No vibration in clutch pedal and it's hard to tell if something is lose around the engine. What do you think @Lex

Maybe you said this in another post, but have you tried adding a couple gallons of E85 and seeing if the KR goes away? If it does, the KR is due to detonation. If it doesn't, it's most likely mechanical noise

[mrdouble99]

Originally Posted by silvapain Maybe you said this in another post, but have you tried adding a couple gallons of E85 and seeing if the KR goes away? If it does, the KR is due to detonation. If it doesn't, it's most likely mechanical noise

In Montreal it's hard to find E85

[udntknw]

Explanation from a local tuner.

"a Knock Retard event is when the ecu senses and prevents " counts" of knock which is known as pre-ignition in the cylinder ( otherwise the fuel is precombusting from the compression and heat generated instead of the spark plug telling it to ignite the fuel) due to poor gas quality, too much ign timing etc etc, Basically on this platform if you see KR at Part Throttle or cruising conditions it is nothing to be worried about due to the fact that the ecu is trained to push ign timing as far as possible during this type of situation for MPG's and records the KR event to "learn" what the fuel octane limit is. Under WOT however if you see KR then the ecu Will add a percentage of fuel ( usually .2 or more) and pull ign timing per count of knock depending on how severe it is. If you see KR under 2 inconsistently then cobb states that this is of no worry, however with a skiTOON or any other pro tune there should never hardly be any KR over 1 in any type of WOT condition."

just tap it in

[mrdouble99]

Originally Posted by udntknw Explanation from a local tuner. "a Knock Retard event is when the ecu senses and prevents " counts" of knock which is known as pre-ignition in the cylinder ( otherwise the fuel is precombusting from the compression and heat generated instead of the spark plug telling it to ignite the fuel) due to poor gas quality, too much ign timing etc etc, Basically on this platform if you see KR at Part Throttle or cruising conditions it is nothing to be worried about due to the fact that the ecu is trained to push ign timing as far as possible during this type of situation for MPG's and records the KR event to "learn" what the fuel octane limit is. Under WOT however if you see KR then the ecu Will add a percentage of fuel ( usually .2 or more) and pull ign timing per count of knock depending on how severe it is. If you see KR under 2 inconsistently then cobb states that this is of no worry, however with a skiTOON or any other pro tune there should never hardly be any KR over 1 in any type of WOT condition." just tap it in

Thanks

But it's weird that i can make it knock at the same rpm in every gear

[udntknw]

Mine does the same thing, I logged log after log and there is no obvious reason. The only thing I saw was the highest advanced timing at those points. I'm about to fill up, I might throw some E in there for craps and laughs.

just tap it in

[Lex]

If E85 is hard to find, add 1 gallon (4 liters) of methyl hydrate from the hardware store (methanol).

From the log you posted it appears that you don't have KR under WOT which is good but see it at part throttle which is a fairly common occurrence with these cars especially as they are coming up to temperature.

[mrdouble99]

Originally Posted by Lex If E85 is hard to find, add 1 gallon (4 liters) of methyl hydrate from the hardware store (methanol). From the log you posted it appears that you don't have KR under WOT which is good but see it at part throttle which is a fairly common occurrence with these cars especially as they are coming up to temperature.

I'll try to find that

Like this ?

http://www.renodepot.com/en/methyl-hydrate-0263257

In a full tank ?

[Lex]

Originally Posted by mrdouble99 I'll try to find that Like this ? RECOCHEM - Methyl Hydrate | Réno-Dépôt In a full tank ?

Yup you got it.

[Dano]

Originally Posted by Lex If E85 is hard to find, add 1 gallon (4 liters) of methyl hydrate from the hardware store (methanol). From the log you posted it appears that you don't have KR under WOT which is good but see it at part throttle which is a fairly common occurrence with these cars especially as they are coming up to temperature.

and really the only way to know your car is fully warm is with an oil temp gauge...ECT does not tell the story. ECT will indicate the car is warm yet it will not be. So my personal rule of thumb is to ignore any KR I get in a 1st run of a series of logs. 99% of the time I might get some KR on the 1st log which is non existent any any subsequent logs.

that tells me my motor was not warm enough on the 1st run. I often see the same thing when e-tuning and why I always want to see at least 3 logs.

[mrdouble99]

1/4 of a tank gone and knock is still there

[udntknw]

I put in a couple gallons of E on my last fill up. I still get the knock cruising at 3k. But I'm not too worried about it.

just tap it in

[Lex]

Originally Posted by udntknw I put in a couple gallons of E on my last fill up. I still get the knock cruising at 3k. But I'm not too worried about it. just tap it in

Part throttle KR is a different story. This is a test for WOT KR.

[udntknw]

Originally Posted by Lex Part throttle KR is a different story. This is a test for WOT KR.

The partial throttle isn't anything to worry about right?

just tap it in

[Dano]

Nothing to worry about however if you are getting high counts of it you might want to ensure nothing is loose in your engine bay or hitting the frame anywhere. Talking 6-7ish.


Tappin

[mrdouble99]

Ok

Since half a tank is gonne and the ( same ) knock is still there....

I did some testing a found that if depress the clutch and rev the engine around 3k rpm while going around 60mph i can get sometimes 4 to 5 KR...


Sooooo... i think there's something lose going on

i'll update when i found that rattle