Ptp claims intresting things

[phailerider]

Originally Posted by dadasracecar http://www.msprotege.com/forum/showt...hp?t=123691417

wow dada... I forgot how much of a hump you had there too!!! That looks just like my dynos. So you guys werent able to get rid of it either.

Did you try adding fuel in there? Or in the final tune is it like mine....just the stock map early and pulling fuel late?

And another note....

What the hell is this big spring all about? Do I have one? I did Ants spring mod.... does that count?John? John?....lol

[phailerider]

Actually I know the answer to that!!!! You guys DO have fuel added there.... thats why the hump is there. The car corrects itself and thats why it spikes!!

What was your car doing on the low end before you tried to tune? Were they all like the baseline you have posted?

[mrlilguy157]

Originally Posted by ptperformance We have already tested 3 units and we have been finding some interesting stuff out with the bench tester.

What bench tester are you using? To run the pump at adequate pressure levels for logging and analyzing, a nice, new machine is needed. As of last fall, there were only 3 in the nation. I'm curious about your bench testing.

Originally Posted by ptperformance It looks like the spring for the pump upgrades may be bouncing off the lobes under very high RPM. The additional weight of the bigger piston may be over working the stock spring, looks like a better spring may be needed as well.

The mass difference between my piston and the stock piston is about a gram, if not less. I don't have a scale next to me at the moment, but I'll be sure to measure and take some picssssss.

Originally Posted by Direct from Brian@AT Brett@APR, you keep bringing up the fact that we didn't use a special return spring to match our pump. With an already marginal contact wear situation, a stronger spring would, in my opinion, create the an increased chance of abnormal wear on the fuel pump lobes of the camshaft. Keep in mind that the piston in our pump didn't increase in weight as much as yours, either. Thanks for looking out though!

Originally Posted by dadasracecar Interesting. My cp-e pump came with a bigger spring presumably for reasons you've articulated. I'll see if I can dig up a side by side comparison pic.

Yes indeed it did, for the whole piston in the APR pumps is larger diameter and larger mass, from beginning to the end. Therefore, APR found it necessary (and I agree) to include a new, stiffer spring for the increase movement in mass.

Originally Posted by palerider What the hell is this big spring all about? Do I have one? I did Ants spring mod.... does that count?John? John?....lol

A stiffer spring is suggested for a significant increase in mass.

edit: Pics found.



^^^^that is the stocker and the retainer^^^^^^^



that is the piston we use, without the retainer. i'll weigh the retainer tomorrow. sound good? the mass difference is less than 10%, if not smaller. I'll have a for sure percentange tomorrow. btw - the cloth weighs 7g

[phailerider]

whatever Jon... youre just a stupid college kid. What do you know?....lol

I have a feeling that all the discussion, disagreement, speculation, and experiment that the ms3 community is having regarding this fuel pump....

is all fucking old news in the vw world.

Just a hunch.

[enganear]

Originally Posted by palerider whatever Jon... youre just a stupid college kid. What do you know?....lol I have a feeling that all the discussion, disagreement, speculation, and experiment that the ms3 community is having regarding this fuel pump.... is all fucking old news in the vw world. Just a hunch.

Which VW models are DI?
-enganear

[phailerider]

Originally Posted by enganear Which VW models are DI? -enganear

all their turbo cars, diesel cars, etc

fsi, tdi, gti Since 2000.... every turbo car theyve made used a version of direct injection. I think audis have too, I just dont know for how long.

Were you being serious with this question.... because Volkswagon pioneered the direct-injection engine for the most part in their diesels and also in mass release gasoline engines as well.

[mrlilguy157]

Originally Posted by palerider all their turbo cars, diesel cars, etc fsi, tdi, gti Since 2000.... every turbo car theyve made used a version of direct injection. I think audis have too, I just dont know for how long. Were you being serious with this question.... because Volkswagon pioneered the direct-injection engine for the most part in their diesels and also in mass release gasoline engines as well.

FAIL.

'06 they released the 2.0t FSI motor in the new mk5 gti's. The TDI's were obviously direct injection though, since the 70's.

All forced induction cars from VW are now FSI/TFSI technology.

[ptperformance]

Originally Posted by palerider all their turbo cars, diesel cars, etc fsi, tdi, gti Since 2000.... every turbo car theyve made used a version of direct injection. I think audis have too, I just dont know for how long. Were you being serious with this question.... because Volkswagon pioneered the direct-injection engine for the most part in their diesels and also in mass release gasoline engines as well.

Way off there, VW did not pioneer the DI market. It was Citron over in europe and a few other car companies over there that were doing DI gas motors. Hell Mitsu had a DI'ed gas motor for the past 10 years, you just can not buy it..... race applications only. VW got on the band wagon after there competition in there neck of the woods started doing it, they had to stay competitive in order to sell cars over there.

[ptperformance]

Originally Posted by mrlilguy157 What bench tester are you using? To run the pump at adequate pressure levels for logging and analyzing, a nice, new machine is needed. As of last fall, there were only 3 in the nation. I'm curious about your bench testing. The mass difference between my piston and the stock piston is about a gram, if not less. I don't have a scale next to me at the moment, but I'll be sure to measure and take some picssssss. Yes indeed it did, for the whole piston in the APR pumps is larger diameter and larger mass, from beginning to the end. Therefore, APR found it necessary (and I agree) to include a new, stiffer spring for the increase movement in mass. A stiffer spring is suggested for a significant increase in mass. edit: Pics found. ^^^^that is the stocker and the retainer^^^^^^^ that is the piston we use, without the retainer. i'll weigh the retainer tomorrow. sound good? the mass difference is less than 10%, if not smaller. I'll have a for sure percentange tomorrow. btw - the cloth weighs 7g

We built our own test stand, a new one costs over $150k. So I guess I will ask? A 10% increase in weight, and the pump moves how fast at redline? I am not about to sit down and do all the math but a guess would have me saying that the stock pump piston at redline has a mass of xxxx, you have increased that mass by 10%. So you are expecting the stock spring to hold back the extra mass? If you think that is the case then so be it, the spring is going to become an issue because of the extra mass of the unit. 99% of all engineers design a part with little to no extra room. Maybe 2 or 3% max, you have changed it 10% and that is more then the engineers had ever designed the part for. Now I could be wrong but it sounds like there are more then one company that thinks the spring may not be able to hold the added weight.

Just because you know a lot in the VW world doesn't automaticly disscount what others are finding out about the MS3. What is the APR pumps total weight, you talk as if you know what it is and they increased the mass for what you are guessing at. What if the APR pump upgrade is lighter then yours? Then what? No guessing, get the facts and do the work to confirm what you are saying. We have been working to hard on our pump upgrades to have "knowledge" win when it comes to real testing. Doing the work vs knowing how something "works" is a huge difference. That is what makes a great part, the work that is put into it.

[ptperformance]

Originally Posted by palerider wow dada... I forgot how much of a hump you had there too!!! That looks just like my dynos. So you guys werent able to get rid of it either. Did you try adding fuel in there? Or in the final tune is it like mine....just the stock map early and pulling fuel late? And another note.... What the hell is this big spring all about? Do I have one? I did Ants spring mod.... does that count?John? John?....lol

Spring mod, LOL..... wrong car.

The spring is the pump cam spring for the DI pump. The larger pistion and additional weight may be affecting the performance of the pump upgrade. More on this later.